Labradoodle Pedgiree Or Not?

[Gayle.]

I thought the name "Australian Service Dog" was being touted instead of Labradoodle.

[Sandra777]

I thought the name "Australian Service Dog" was being touted instead of Labradoodle.

Coffee splunk. That gave me an image of a dog in camo gear toting a machine gun

[Kelpie-i]

The Australian Labradoodle Association is doing great stuff to ensure they are only breeding healthy dogs and there are some people who are working toward recognition.

Just because the ANKC dont accept onto their registry doesnt mean it isnt a purebred. Problem is the term labradoodle is used to describe a first cross dog with one parent a poodle and one parent a lab - a mongrel and its also used to describe a dog which is breeding consistently to a standard and is 10 or so generations into the breed development work.

I see nothing wrong with anyone working toward making a new breed - predictible and consistent - however, while ever they refuse to change the name they have no hope in my opinion in ever getting recognition for or acceptance of their dogs as a breed.

Well said Steve. Having worked with and trained many of these dogs, I am yet to see a bad one...temperament wise! They are very much a lovely natured dog and exceptionally easy to train. I do hope they succeed in becoming a recognised breed. After all, isn't that how all the pure breeds of today started out

[koalathebear]

Coffee splunk. That gave me an image of a dog in camo gear toting a machine gun

Absolutely.

Speaking of Service Dogs - has anyone been watching Extraordinary Dogs? In Canada, the MIRA Foundation have been cross-breeding a new type of service dog called the Labernese (Labrador x Bernese Mountain Dog) to work with autistic children. I find that name quite weird, although apparently the results of the canine therapy have been very good with children with autism.

As for the Labradoodle, I still think that out of the nouveau portmantaeu crossbreeds, it's probably the most likely to become a recognised breed one day. Partly because its origins were notionally service-driven and even though the original 'creator' has regretted his original position, the dog is very popular - one day in the future we'll probably read on Wikipedia about the original furore and outrage surrounding the dubious origins of the breed etc. I was browsing that Kate's Family Pets site and saw that she was asking for owners of 'old' labradoodles sourced from her to post because she interested to see how they went. Some owners posted with details of HD and other health defects. The average lifespan seemed to be around 11-13 years - but it wasn't huge number of people posting.

[trojka]

Speaking of Service Dogs - has anyone been watching Extraordinary Dogs? In Canada, the MIRA Foundation have been cross-breeding a new type of service dog called the Labernese (Labrador x Bernese Mountain Dog) to work with autistic children. I find that name quite weird, although apparently the results of the canine therapy have been very good with children with autism.

I saw that too, and have to admit I really liked the look (and temperament, as far as I could tell) of those dogs. Although they are of course nowhere near being a breed, there seemed to be quite a few different "types". And I agree, the name is just as silly as Labradoodle, Cockerpoo and all the other designer breeds.

[Gayle.]

The Australian Labradoodle Association is doing great stuff to ensure they are only breeding healthy dogs and there are some people who are working toward recognition.

Just because the ANKC dont accept onto their registry doesnt mean it isnt a purebred. Problem is the term labradoodle is used to describe a first cross dog with one parent a poodle and one parent a lab - a mongrel and its also used to describe a dog which is breeding consistently to a standard and is 10 or so generations into the breed development work.

I see nothing wrong with anyone working toward making a new breed - predictible and consistent - however, while ever they refuse to change the name they have no hope in my opinion in ever getting recognition for or acceptance of their dogs as a breed.

Well said Steve. Having worked with and trained many of these dogs, I am yet to see a bad one...temperament wise! They are very much a lovely natured dog and exceptionally easy to train. I do hope they succeed in becoming a recognised breed. After all, isn't that how all the pure breeds of today started out

No. Some breeds, yes, but not all. A lot of purebreds came about through selective breeding from a "type" of dog, not from crossing already recognised breeds.

[raineth]

Bit off topic:

KTB there is a lovely dog named Clive who is an assistance dog for autism (i.e. he helps a boy with autism) in Ireland. he has a blog that I read often.

And he is a golden retriever x poodle.

Some dogs just have it. My first Great dane, Mr Darcy was amazing with my son who has autism. Mr Darcy had an incredible relaxing presence for him. And when my son would have a melt down he would sit infront of him and poke him gently in the tummy with his nose and voila - the melt down would end!

Mr Darcy has been gone for about a year and a half and my son has made Mr Darcy out of Lego and will talk to Lego Mr Darcy every day. Lego Mr Darcy has pride of place on the bed head

[Kelpie-i]

Yes thanks GayleK....I should have said "some" not all.

Ray Coppinger's theory is that most of the dogs used to create the breeds of today were originally early village dogs, 'proto dogs' as he called them.

[shortstep]

No. Some breeds, yes, but not all. A lot of purebreds came about through selective breeding from a "type" of dog, not from crossing already recognised breeds.

Go back before the Victorians wanted to not only control the pedigrees of the royals so decided to inbreed as a way to keep out the commoners blood, this lead to the idea of royal animal breeding. Go back to before this time you would have not had breeds in the kennel club way of thinking. What you would have seen were types of dogs. Groups of people with types of dogs for the purposes they needed them for. These types of dogs then spread with those people as they migrated and were crossed yet again with other types I the new locations.

Collie type dogs come from sight hound types originating in the middle east brought to England by the Romans, which were crossed with Nordic types brought in by the Vikings, throw in some types of cur (hunting type dogs0 and the collie type had begun. For a 1000 years there were collies of many sorts and types usually noted as regional types (Welsh Collie, Scotch Collie, Black and Tan Collie, Bob tailed Collie, Highland collie, Lowland collie, Shetland collie and so on). Collie comes from the root word coal also meaning black, and was slang for coal workers, Coolies. Not only given to the shepherds working dog, this word was also spread about the world by the British and was used for any indentured servant or those of dark colored skin (is documented to have been used here in Australian in the early mid 1800) and then we of course also find the word again given to a collie type dog the Koolie.

Now we have gotten rid of most royals, but we still have the kennel club. Most of the types of collies have been lost and the gene pools of the remaining collies have been shall we say refined so as to have bred out all but a very few allowable traits. This has happened to all types of dogs and most types of them have also been lost. After 100 years trying to maintain breed purity Kennel club dogs, we have succeeded in wiping out most of the types of dogs on earth 200-300 years ago. Go figure why we thought that was good.

Anyway you are right about types.

BTW there are still some 'types' of dogs left. The siberians still breed their Siberians for example, not that the kennel club considers them siberians, but they are what the breed was and still is in it's native land.

Edited March 18, 2011 by shortstep

[Gayle.]

Yes thanks GayleK....I should have said "some" not all.

Ray Coppinger's theory is that most of the dogs used to create the breeds of today were originally early village dogs, 'proto dogs' as he called them.

Also too, with the breeds that were created by crossing other breeds, the creators had a very clear indication of what they were after, and a very real reason for using the dogs they did. And generally, it was not the "look" of the dog, it was the working traits, resilience etc, rather than appearance. The breeds used....such as the Dalmatian used in the creation of the early heelers, contributed to how the dog looks today, but they weren't used for their looks, they were used for what they could bring to the gene pool. In the case of Dalmatians, I believe it was their endurance traits as a carriage dog, but they also ended up contributing the white ticking in the ACD's coat.

[mumtoshelley]

I know that to get the purebreds we have today were crossed with other breeds. But answer this

What work can the lab cross poodle do that a purebred poodle or lab can't do?

The way i see it why breed a crossbreed that does the same work as the purebred lab or poodle does. Every breed is bred for something. Border collies,cattle dogs etc were bred to herd livestock, Goldens,albs etc were bred to hunt ducks and other birds. For the lab cross poodle to be a purebred would have to do a job that niether the purebred lab or purebred poodle can do thats the way i see it.

[megan_]

Not all purebreds were bred to work - pugs, cavaliers etc were bred as companions.

In "the olden days" people relied on dogs to work the farm, hunt etc. Now hunting is a sport, rather than a means of catching dinner. Our needs have changed, and therefore so have the functions that we require.

We have many purebreds that can herd. By your thinking mumtoshelley, maybe we should only have one (ie we have a dog that already herds, therefore we don't need any more).

ETA: My understanding is that "purebred" relates to pedigree and breeding true to type etc. It doesn't relate to a breeds ability to work or contribute something to society.

Edited March 18, 2011 by megan_

[jacqui835]

There is a great big world of purebred dogs that are not in the ANKC. Though it may be surprising to some, being in the ANKC is the last thing some of them want.

I will admit that using the word 'Pedigreed dog' right now is best left securely with the kennel club dogs, for fear that all dog breeders might get taken in with the problems facing them.

Pedigreed really means just that, that the dog has a pedigree and a pedigree is not exclusive to ANKC, far from it.

However the word we should really use is purebred, as this is also not limited to the kennel club dogs, does not yet carry the baggage associted with the word pedigreed, and we can hope can still be saved as an acceptable method of breeding dogs.

Purebred means an animal bred from 2 parents of the same breed. Breeds come to exsist from the mixing of other breeds to form a new breed with a new definition.

A breed can be defind a by a lot of different ways, even defined by not using a show ring standard.

Anyone or group of breeders can form their own registry or join one already functioning, so they certainly can be registered even if not choosing to particiapate in ANKC.

Now can a labraddodles be a purebred? Why not.

If they breed 4-5-6 generations of labradoodles or how every many they (not you) decide it takes and they document that to their rules (not yours), in their stud book (not just your stud book) and they breed dogs that fit the definition they set (not that you set) then they can call their dogs purebred Labradoodles if they want to, and would be perfectly right in doing so.

Because I know what a labradoodle is and everyone commenting also knows what a labradoodle is. Because Labradoodles already have a registry with rules. Because Labrododdles are listed on the AVA and OFA hip and elbow and health testing registers, and in Australia are the 6th most common breed to be hip scored by AVA. Because Labradoodles are known, have breed clubs and breeders all over the world. I would say they certainly are a breed and can call their dogs purebred, and can call them pedigreed if they like. In fact even if they want to leave their stud book open to accept controlled cross breds, I would still say they are a breed.

I could careless if people want to breed labradoodles or buy labradoodles. I do care about the quality of the breeding programs, but that applies to all breeders.

Great post and really well worded

[Bluefairy]

Bit off topic:

KTB there is a lovely dog named Clive who is an assistance dog for autism (i.e. he helps a boy with autism) in Ireland. he has a blog that I read often.

And he is a golden retriever x poodle.

Some dogs just have it. My first Great dane, Mr Darcy was amazing with my son who has autism. Mr Darcy had an incredible relaxing presence for him. And when my son would have a melt down he would sit infront of him and poke him gently in the tummy with his nose and voila - the melt down would end!

Mr Darcy has been gone for about a year and a half and my son has made Mr Darcy out of Lego and will talk to Lego Mr Darcy every day. Lego Mr Darcy has pride of place on the bed head

Thats amazing about your son. I have noticed how most animals have a calming quality in special needs kids and adults. My daughter has Aspergers and our new 6mth old rescue kitten has this affect with her. The kitten sits on her lap or just snuggles next to her, especially when she is upset, and my daughter just relaxes while stroking her. The bond is very strong with them.

BF

[Erny]

So what are they going to put down as the origin of the breed - to make money!!!!!!!

Give me a break - they can test all they want - the various "examples" I have met have been lunatics - is this in the breed description as well.

I agree with Steve (Post #12) (Still reading through the others).

In response to the above, Frufru ..... I have met quite a number of Labrador x Poodles and they have actually been very nice and intelligent dogs. The sample numbers I have met would not form a majority though. Would yours?

[kelpiekaye]

So what are they going to put down as the origin of the breed - to make money!!!!!!!

Actually I think originally they were bred in an attempt to create a non-allergenic breed to be a guide dog...failed for that purpose though as of course only 50% of them retain the poodle non-shedding type coat. Really can't see them becoming a true breed in their own right in the near future though, because of the issues already identified by others in this post.

I too thought they were originaly crossed for the above reason.

[koalathebear]

Thats amazing about your son. I have noticed how most animals have a calming quality in special needs kids and adults. My daughter has Aspergers and our new 6mth old rescue kitten has this affect with her. The kitten sits on her lap or just snuggles next to her, especially when she is upset, and my daughter just relaxes while stroking her. The bond is very strong with them.

Still OT but that's so great about your daughter. I found it interesting in that episode of Extraordinary Dogs that they said that a lot of kids with autism do NOT like physical contact and that having a dog somehow broke through that aversion and that they would hold, pat and cuddle the dog and the dog could help to calm them when they were stressing out. My only concern was that dogs have such a short lifespan. The passing of a beloved dog is traumatic already - it is probably even worse for a child with autism :'(

[silentchild]

Speaking of Service Dogs - has anyone been watching Extraordinary Dogs? In Canada, the MIRA Foundation have been cross-breeding a new type of service dog called the Labernese (Labrador x Bernese Mountain Dog) to work with autistic children. I find that name quite weird, although apparently the results of the canine therapy have been very good with children with autism.

Sorry to contribute to the OT discussion, but does anyone remember why they decided to cross the "Lebarnese" on Extraordinary Dogs? Couldn't a purebred labrador or Bernese mountain dog do the job the Lebarnese is doing?

Edited March 18, 2011 by silentchild

[trojka]

Speaking of Service Dogs - has anyone been watching Extraordinary Dogs? In Canada, the MIRA Foundation have been cross-breeding a new type of service dog called the Labernese (Labrador x Bernese Mountain Dog) to work with autistic children. I find that name quite weird, although apparently the results of the canine therapy have been very good with children with autism.

Sorry to contribute to the OT discussion, but does anyone remember why they decided to cross the "Lebarnese" on Extraordinary Dogs? Couldn't a purebred labrador or Bernese mountain dog do the job the Lebarnese is doing?

This is what the organisation says about the cross (from their website):

http://www.mira.ca/en/our-dogs/8/the-labernese_37.html

[cassie]

Speaking of Service Dogs - has anyone been watching Extraordinary Dogs? In Canada, the MIRA Foundation have been cross-breeding a new type of service dog called the Labernese (Labrador x Bernese Mountain Dog) to work with autistic children. I find that name quite weird, although apparently the results of the canine therapy have been very good with children with autism.

Sorry to contribute to the OT discussion, but does anyone remember why they decided to cross the "Lebarnese" on Extraordinary Dogs? Couldn't a purebred labrador or Bernese mountain dog do the job the Lebarnese is doing?

EXACTLY!!!!

Stupid name, stupid cross