mini girl Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 A little while back I wrote about my Mini Poodle boy I bought from New Zealand and at 15 weeks the vet told me he had patella - his breeder asked me to run him on for a year and see if it was present when he was a year old - well I did this and today the vet gave him a very thorough check and found no movement at all - it was really wonderful news but left me wondering if I do breed him do you think his pups could have loose knees in the early days too - this has happened a couple of times to me to find that as adults the knees are fine - but did have two pups with grade 1 - refunded half the purchase price at a year to the one that it showed up in after she had left me - the other it was noted as loose at 7 weeks so sold him to just cover costs - both dogs are very low grade 1 now but the thing that really worries me is how do you dam well know if loose knees at 7 or 8 weeks will be fine at 12 months or are they going to become a grade 1 or worse. Guess its $64,000 question - does anyone have a crystal ball - has anyone had a pup loose at 7 weeks to find them ok at a year? And what do you do when selling an 8 or 9 week pup that does have some slight movement that may or maynot improve do you offer a guarantee that you will refund at a year if it does turn out to be patella or reduce the pup to say half price with full disclosure. Incidentally all my breeding dogs are very sound have been checked by my vet as well as an orphapedic vetinary specialist. But not breeding the two again that produced the patella pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 There is no way of knowing & only you can make the decision. For me I would not. Things can go wrong when breeding from 2 with no known issues, although one can't always check back 100%, so too risky IMO, but lots do it. Regarding what you do in the future re health guarantees is a bugger of a decision. While one wants to be so fair & honest it can turn haywire (as in my post, although that's more silly than a big issue ). Patella surgery is expensive. What do you do with the dog if you get it back at a year old with say grade 2,s ? You can't just leave them & can't re home like that. Would anyone take the half price risk ? How would you know by one clear litter that later/other litters will not be affected ? Sounds all too hard. Lots for you to think about & no 100% certain answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) after researching this topic for a few years now and asking alot of breeders input and writing results etc I had a 11 month old LC chihuahua boy who was diagnosed with a half grading so exercised him and also fed him liquid calcium with glucosomine, took him back a few months later and he was then clear. thought we were over the hurdle then at 18 months was diagnosed with grade 3. my vet has been doing this for a very long time and is considered very thorough and also writes for the VICDOG magazine in victoria here. so we confer quite often about this disease. our belief is that under 12 months of age dogs bones are very soft and just developing so to test could put them out, at that age it is very hard to tell grading and is null and void really. we wait until they are over 12 months old to test as the bones have matured by then. it is thought that exercise, combined with diet can play a major role in your dogs patellas. incidentally, that grade 3 dog i mentioned both parents were clear of PL also grandparents and great grandparents on the bitches side my breeding. the sire, breeder has the same beliefs as us and does not breed with infected dogs. but.....and a big but too......lol........there are other bloodlines and dogs we know nothing about and for several reasons cannot check either the dogs are dead or been sold as pets etc. so no way of checking. so we don't know which dog in the bloodline has PL or which ones are sound. even if you do use dogs clear of PL and go through the whole pedigree its very recessive which means at some point the disease is going to skip generations and come out in a pup here and there. the only solution i can offer is when you buy a dog, try and view as many of the direct relatives as you can i.e. mother, grand mother and grand father and what they produced to give you an idea. also what attitude the breeder has to patella luxation e.g. do they run on dogs with patella luxation and breed with it or do they desex and sell. we do accept that breeding with dogs affected then cements that condition into the pedigree so therefore any future progeny are in danger of producing it or being affected by it. and......there are also carriers, meaning, the dogs themselves will appear sound but then they are mated together to produce this condition in the pups quite strongly and most of the litter are affected by it. if you get one in a litter or one every so often you are not doing too badly and are like the rest of us plugging along trying to deal with this annoying disease grade 1 is livable for both dog and owner and doesn't require surgery so most owners we have come across are fine about it as they understand it is unfortunately a common ailment for our breed and other breeds. i published one of my articles in the club magazine and got positive feedback from it, new breeders refer to it all the time. was going to publish in the VICDOG magazine at some stage when i get my butt into gear, as DOGSVIC said they'd be happy to publish my patella article. SORRY ETA: the boy with grade 3 in one leg, other leg was sound and he was a beautiful example of a chihuahua too which broke my heart to let him go he was the first dog with patella we had produced in about 10 years. so checking pedigrees as much as you can, breeding 0 to 0 can reduce the severity of this disease too as we are living proof of this. so this boy with grade 3 in one leg was desexed but got as many views as possible on what breeders thought about this and one said that they admire our honesty as most would have bred him anyway and continued to show him. others told me they'd still breed with him which i think is wrong if we are ever going to reduce the incidence of this disease and.or eliminate its up to breeders to be honest about their own stock and if not up to par DESEX and move on. not breed this into pedigrees for future breeders to stumble across much like what you are doing now you poor thing ;) i can sympathise with you though. been there done that several times over. i know of alot of others that are in the same boat. hope this helps toydogs Edited April 21, 2011 by toy dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 You need more time and data for this. Personally, I get knees checked on my 8 week olds. I don't check again until after they finish growing. Growth spurts are a common reason for Patella Luxation to appear in previously normal dogs. These dogs end up normal as adults. I've found that the knees that pass muster at 8 weeks are good at adult recheck. Those with slight movement at 8 weeks are good at adult recheck. The ones that are definite luxation at 8 weeks are for life. I'm always conscious to breed with dogs who have the strongest knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 Thank you for you advice - it is certainly a worry and hate to think of breeding a pup that may be affected - luckly only had it come up very mildly - but still hate this. You mention Lowenhart that you get them checked at 8 weeks - I also do this sometimes a little earlier when having their shot - my vet explained to me how he carried out the test - I was of course present - in as much as extending the leg and pushing on the knee they did move out on one of the pups he was testing but quickly returned to the normal position on their own - so in your option what does that mean - they did not stay out or move without the pressure being applied. I like you do tend to believe that this young is just too young for testing as with my imported boy and other pups all seems normal once an adult - have also had a 2nd vet opinion on the imported boy now too - he came up sound at just 1 year. I did let the people who were buying the pup with the movement know what the vet had found and have offered a 50% refund if it is present at 1 year this is as much as anyone can do I guess - you can't hold on to them till grown its not fair to the puppy and the owners to be so look forward to their pup. I did ask the orphapedic vet about dna testing for PL but his opinion was sadly that it wouldn't be available in his lifetime - but I guess we can live in hope that it will be available one day. At present its a worry when it can jump so many generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) I did let the people who were buying the pup with the movement know what the vet had found and have offered a 50% refund if it is present at 1 year this is as much as anyone can do I guess - you can't hold on to them till grown its not fair to the puppy and the owners to be so look forward to their pup. well thats all you can do really isnt it, but kuddos to you to offer that! i bet the owners would be happy with that. i just reduce the price while i note others do not, each to their own, but like you i'd rather be honest in my dealings. i wonder sometimes do those other breeders that obviously sell without saying a thing, worry about being dragged to court, maybe they say they didn't know. which is bad in itself because as breeders we are supposed to be testing for any known conditions and doing our best to keep them out or at least reduce them. I did ask the orphapedic vet about dna testing for PL but his opinion was sadly that it wouldn't be available in his lifetime - but I guess we can live in hope that it will be available one day. At present its a worry when it can jump so many generations. yes i came across the same answer which is a shame because it would help us breeders tremendously if we could have something else a bit more accurate with this condition rather than just relying on vets who all have a different opinion and they are varied as much as the breeders opinions too. its my way of thinking it adds alot of confusion and the breeder often has to search for the information themselves and learn to deal with all this themselves i still think that in some breeds that it affects and is common, we would all benefit having a scheme that joins up with the ANKC and breed clubs to try to reduce the occurances and offers info for sharing similar to what the german shepherds have with HD. Even go so far as to put the results in a register or even on pedigrees. cheers TOYDOG Edited April 23, 2011 by toy dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Just as a little add on re the puppy who did have slight movement in his knees at 8 weeks - well he went to a lovely home with my written guarantee that if he did have patella at 1 year I would refund half the cost to them - but happily at 12 or so weeks he was examined by the new owners vet and found to be totally sound - this made me very happy indeed. My little imported boy who was diagnosed early and now at a year has been examined by two separate vets and found to be sound is such a lovely little fellow I have just got to have a litter from him - so heres hoping - but I feel he is a pretty good bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Just as a little add on re the puppy who did have slight movement in his knees at 8 weeks - well he went to a lovely home with my written guarantee that if he did have patella at 1 year I would refund half the cost to them - but happily at 12 or so weeks he was examined by the new owners vet and found to be totally sound - this made me very happy indeed. My little imported boy who was diagnosed early and now at a year has been examined by two separate vets and found to be sound is such a lovely little fellow I have just got to have a litter from him - so heres hoping - but I feel he is a pretty good bet. sometimes you can only tell what lies back in the pedigree when you mate 2 dogs together, sometimes it might "activate" genetic problems or they might be really good together giving you nice sound pups. goodluck to you anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts