Should We Give Our Puppy Back?

[luvsdogs]

Have a read of this, particularly page 8 Orthopedic Disorders.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHea...euterInDogs.pdf

[poodlefan]

A 9/10 score isn't catastrophic.

Keep the pup LEAN, don't over exercise her and wait and see. The weight is crucial. If you can't feel rib with the flat of your hand diet her now.

You may be worrying over nothing.

I'd not be desexing before 12 months either.

Edited March 19, 2011 by poodlefan

[Jumblyjunior]

Have a read of this, particularly page 8 Orthopedic Disorders.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHea...euterInDogs.pdf

Thanks for that,have been doing lots of reading which does support waiting till maturity before desexing but weight is a compounding factor not controlled for in most of these studies.

She is a very lean pup at times we have thought a bit too lean but vet has confirmed she is a very good weight and we are tracking her weight and there are no sudden leaps.

As someone said before 9/10 is not a disaster and not that much different to 7/7 but it is the fact the we were not given a chance to make this decision ourselves and purchase our puppy we know two parents 0/0 could have puppies with bad hips or a whole host of other issues.

As it stands we are planning to speak to breeder this weekend and tell her we want to proceed with penn hip xrays next week if all good we keep puppy (splitting cost of penn hip?) if not good

we will have paid for penn hip and she refund us costs of puppy and costs to date (not the penn hip xray)

Ifshe does not want us to proceed with penn hip then she takes puppy and refunds us costs of puppy and costs to date.

It is very hard for us to make these decisions but we are not going to put ourselves at what isincreased risk through someone elses deception. If anyone thinks it is not increased risk why are hip scores taken before breeding and presented to potential owners.

[Kirty]

I thought pennhip was not hugely reliable? And from memory of past threads on the topic, I have a feeling most vets will tell you they need the surgery anyway.

[TsarsMum]

i really wonder if you will get your money back. i mean there is nothing wrong with this puppy but your worry and concern about something that really might not happen.

good luck

[Dogsfevr]

I would be surprised if the breeder will pay any cost for penn hip when there is no reason for it,The dog isn't showing any signs of lameness or medical reason to have it done.

As i said before you need to return this pup & move on.

[Andisa]

I would be surprised if the breeder will pay any cost for penn hip when there is no reason for it,The dog isn't showing any signs of lameness or medical reason to have it done.

As i said before you need to return this pup & move on.

Totally agree with this - return the pup - get your money back and move on.

[Nekhbet]

penn hip on a dog this young is useless and yes, most vets will say it needs surgery (I worked for a PennHipp vet ... he loved his money by the way) as the joints and bones are still forming. If there is nothing wrong with the puppy dont go looking for it.

You're obsessing over nothing if the pup is not limping or walking sideways all the time. If it's going to cause you that much stress just return the pup and get a refund.

This dogs hip scores are in double figures for each hip (actually they probably are close to hitting the cap) he's going to be 4 in August and still gets about. In fact he decided to jump on me to wake me this morning at almost 50kg.

It's not the end of the world because mum didnt have a perfect hip score. Two of my dogs I dont have complete hip scores for and they've turned out fine. Life's a gamble no matter what you do, you can either let it eat you or just get on with it and enjoy it.

[Fordogs]

Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

This breeder very well might NOT want to pay for anything ( and I don't think that she should as the puppy at this time has absolutely no problems at all ).

You should have done more homework.

You should NOT look for problems where there are none.

BUT IF YOU HAD BOUGHT A PUPPY FROM ME, I would be telling you to bring it right back here just to be rid of you because I believe that you would always be looking for a problem with this puppy and if you really need to go on a forum and ask the question * Should we give our puppy back *? then I would say YES, YES, YES.

[*Lolapalooza*]

At what point will you decide that the PENNHIP result will tell you that your puppy will have 'acceptable' hips to you? 90th percentile, 50th percentile.

I think you should just give her back too.

[Jumblyjunior]

Thank you for all your empathic responses we have kept puppy and have moved on.

[Bubitty]

I am so glad you have kept the puppy Jumblyjunior. I think even if you will need to contend with any potential hip issues many years from now (and that is a big "if") at least you won't spend the rest if your days wondering what happened to that puppy you loved and what became of her. That is how I would feel!

I would also advise against the pennhip surgery. Just raise puppy to the best of your ability and monitor her progress. Best not to subject her to invasive tests and surgery when there are no problems! Some pups are just tough little things and she could grow up to be a healthy, tough as nails beast! No need to subject her to such serious surgery now!

[pn10]

Long time lurker first time poster.

I've watched this thread and the posts for a while and although the majority are caring, helpful and thought out responses there are a few posts that are just poor form and from people who obviously don't bother to read all posts before unloading both barrels on someone.

Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

This breeder very well might NOT want to pay for anything ( and I don't think that she should as the puppy at this time has absolutely no problems at all ).

You should have done more homework.

You should NOT look for problems where there are none.

BUT IF YOU HAD BOUGHT A PUPPY FROM ME, I would be telling you to bring it right back here just to be rid of you because I believe that you would always be looking for a problem with this puppy and if you really need to go on a forum and ask the question * Should we give our puppy back *? then I would say YES, YES, YES.

Try to read the threads before going off on people. The OP made it clear that they specifically asked for hip scores and test results before getting the puppy.

Yes they may have been a bit naiive to trust a breeder's word when they stated what the scores were, and believed the breeder's excuses for delays in sending the paperwork through, but apart from that they did all their homework.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Regarding homework do you think it's fine for a breeder to lie about the hip scores of a dog in order to make a sale? I definitely think that's completely unacceptable.

And going forwards with your analogy of "IF YOU HAD BOUGHT A PUPPY FROM ME...." If I bought a puppy from you and you deliberately lied to me about the hip scores of the dam when they were above the breed average then I would be pretty angry.

It seems to me that the OP is trying to do what it right for him/her and young family as well as for the puppy, and has come on this forum to try to get some advice from experienced dog lovers to help his/her decision making process. They are not asking others to make the decision for them.

If you want to make a bunch of assumptions and have a go at them go ahead. Not very helpful but I hope it makes you feel like a big person to have a go at someone who asks for some advice.

Frankly the reason I joined this form was because it seemed to have people who were caring, but I guess there will always be exceptions!

[Keira&Phoenix]

Glad you decided to keep your pup, I am sure you will give him a loving home and the best chance of a happy life.

I have a 3.5 yo female Bitza with severe hip displaxia (not scored, but if you saw the way she stands, walks and runs you would understand). She was diagnosed at around 18 months old after having surgery for luxating patella at 10 months old, but has had it since birth and she grew up on a good diet, was always a good weight and never had high impact or excessive excercise. In saying that she always walked funny so it should have been obviously but I wasn't experienced enough to realise. She is a tough one though and gets through every day like she is 100% healthy

So I understand your concerns about taking on a dog who may in the future have problems (we are about $4000 in so far 2.5 yrs (since first surgery) about 1500 was surgery for patella everything else is vet, physio, medication, hydrotherapy etc) but as you have already said even if you had perfect hip scores no guarantee.

If you have pet insurance then you are on the right track. I wouldn't bother with the Penn Hip a this stage. Wait until 12 months then look into doing it along with desexing.

Good luck!

BTW - Where are the pictures?!?!?!?

[Nekhbet]

OK the breeder lied ... but the bitches new scores are nothing that earth shaking in comparison. I KNOW for the OP there is some stress because of the previous dog. And yes, I am in the same boat after losing my last german shepherd to the fact his hip fell out of the socket, and I had to euthanise him on his second birthday. I wont get another because it plays on me and I dont want the same thing to happen again, it was extremely traumatic to me as the GSD was my favourite breed and he was a very special dog.

But saying that, we now have a severe HD/ED rottie. Now I spent enough time crying, worrrying, stressing and suffering ulcers over Diesels condition. Eventually I just sat down and went, you know what ... I'm going to have fun with the dog, we're going to have an awesome time together if its another 10 months or 10 years. And we do. He got his therapy dog certification, he loves going for drives, his pain is managed naturally. He's a big goober of a dog who pulls faces, makes people laugh and herds guests for a pat and a cuddle. If we kept worrying and fiddle faddling we would miss all of that.

Like I said, you can keep worrying about the what ifs, or you can enjoy the dog and make the best of it.

[sas]

Eventually I just sat down and went, you know what ... I'm going to have fun with the dog, we're going to have an awesome time together if its another 10 months or 10 years. And we do.

[Fordogs]

OK

I HAVE followed the whole thread and I do know that some breeders do not tell the whole truth BUT as far as health testing goes, IF THE BREEDER does NOT show you and give you a copy of these certificates don't WALK >>>>>> RUN away.

ALL health testing should be done prior NOT AFTER the BREEDING.

As Nekhbet said those scores are NOT earth shaking had they been over the 25 mark then that would have caused concern for me, even 2 dogs with under 10 can still have puppies with high scores. All we can do is breed with the best available dogs of our breed and hope that all puppies will be healthy

EVERYONE that buys a puppy from ME will receive a copy of these in their new puppy folder.

[Miranda]

I HAVE followed the whole thread and I do know that some breeders do not tell the whole truth BUT as far as health testing goes, IF THE BREEDER does NOT show you and give you a copy of these certificates don't WALK >>>>>> RUN away.

ALL health testing should be done prior NOT AFTER the BREEDING.

I couldn't agree more.

OP, you haven't said whether you intend to go ahead with the preliminary xray, but if you are you will be wasting your money. IMO the dam's score isn't high enough to warrant it and as the dog isn't showing any symptoms you certainly can't expect the breeder to pay. No offence, but I think you are overreacting.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Miranda

[MissMonaro]

A bit late for you now......but one of the things I tell people that ring me looking for a Labrador puppy.

For starters, sadly not all registered breeders are ethical.

Anyway....I always tell them to ask to see the hip and elbow scores of the parents and DO NOT take the breeders word. Ask...if they do not show them too you... thank them and walk away.

I am probably over pedantic when I have puppy ppl here.... I show them hip and elbow scores, PRA certificates, basically any bit of paper I have on the dogs that I have bred.

A lot say, but we don't know what we are looking at. I say first get them to show you....write the scores down.... ring me back.

I was the same once.....with our first Lab we asked if the parents had been hip and elbow scored......YES they had. Great we said (and this was before it was compulsory), but we thought well its been done and they bred them, so must mean they are good scores.....ummm.......turns out, not.

Our dog has moderate hip dysplasia. She is quite old, has had no hip operations, nothing. She is starting to get athritis now...but she'd still try and chase a ball if we let her. Its not the end of the world and too many vets say "operate now to prevent problems"....but if it isnt broken, then dont try and fix it.

If we hadnt of decided to go down the path of being a breeder, we would of never got her scored.....we would never have known there was a problem. She would of got to this ripe old age and just put her slowness down to aging and athritis etc.

Back at the time, we rang the owner of the stud dog (pups were registered in her name, not the bitches owners) and told her the score. She said she would never let her dog go back over that bitch again.....but you know what...she did.....another 2 times We never asked for anything from any of them...... we learnt a hell of a lot from it..... and also would never refer that stud dog owner to anyone that asks who has puppies....

Do I think the breeder in your case was wrong ? Yes I do. But I also wouldnt go looking for a problem thats potentially not there.

[Pillow]

I know this is is an outdated thread but I don't get out much.

If I was a breeder who made a mistake and told the OP the wrong hip scores the first thing I would do as a responsible person/breeder would be to offer return of pup and full money back or if the OP preferred certainly pay for PennHip as a gesture of good will and any thing else I could do to make good my error.

I hope that little pup brings you joy every day.