Nekhbet Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I dont think thats fair aussilover, they were told a different hip score by the breeder. I wouldnt desex a large breed anyway until its 12 months of age. I regret doing my HD/ED rottweiler he would have had some testosterone to help bulk him out a bit. I will never do it again no matter what the dog. Honestly ... I wouldnt panic and 'look' for problems where there probably are none. Puppies are wobbly. Let the pup be a pup, dont go cutting it up as a precautionary measure because it's a BIG operation. Let the pup mature, see how it walks and have it x-rayed at 12 months old unless you see serious faults. Keep it lean, feed it an appropriate diet, dont desex early, dont let it throw itself down flights of stairs, off furniture and out of cars and dont take it for 5km walks. Biggest thing is ... relax and enjoy your dog. You probably did more before this revised score so dont let it freak you out. I'm onto my second extreme HD/ED dog and honestly, his scores would make your head spin but he gets about reasonably well. Dont worry about 'what if's' you'll just end up with an ulcur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumblyjunior Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I dont think thats fair aussilover, they were told a different hip score by the breeder.I wouldnt desex a large breed anyway until its 12 months of age. I regret doing my HD/ED rottweiler he would have had some testosterone to help bulk him out a bit. I will never do it again no matter what the dog. Honestly ... I wouldnt panic and 'look' for problems where there probably are none. Puppies are wobbly. Let the pup be a pup, dont go cutting it up as a precautionary measure because it's a BIG operation. Let the pup mature, see how it walks and have it x-rayed at 12 months old unless you see serious faults. Keep it lean, feed it an appropriate diet, dont desex early, dont let it throw itself down flights of stairs, off furniture and out of cars and dont take it for 5km walks. Biggest thing is ... relax and enjoy your dog. You probably did more before this revised score so dont let it freak you out. I'm onto my second extreme HD/ED dog and honestly, his scores would make your head spin but he gets about reasonably well. Dont worry about 'what if's' you'll just end up with an ulcur Thanks for kind words and defence - reaches for the mylanta.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalevi Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Curious - what's the hip breed average in Labs? I've heard of lots of cases of parents with perfect hips producing failing hips and vise versa, and even a big shift in puppies of the same litter. I guess in your shoes I'd be a tad upset with the breeder for misleading you. That's very wrong. But moving forward I guess I'd be doing the Penn Hip as soon as you can and making decisions from there. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumblyjunior Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Curious - what's the hip breed average in Labs?I've heard of lots of cases of parents with perfect hips producing failing hips and vise versa, and even a big shift in puppies of the same litter. I guess in your shoes I'd be a tad upset with the breeder for misleading you. That's very wrong. But moving forward I guess I'd be doing the Penn Hip as soon as you can and making decisions from there. Good luck. Some say 12 some say 14 some say 16. Most australian sites seem to say 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) The AVA hip score information is here That data says the current average is 9.4 (the first sheet anyway, I'm not sure what the second sheet is on about). Edited March 17, 2011 by molasseslass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Thanks for kind words and defence - reaches for the mylanta.... oh I'm waaaaaaaay past Mylanta mmmmm Nexium is my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) I think saying we did not check the hip scores first or worry about PRA is unfair - as we did both of these things - only thing is we were told the wrong info (in writing) our only naivety was to not get the actual certificate and confirm the breeder was being honest and as i have said earlier that we were aware that perfect parents hips does not mean perfect puppy. Do you think it is unfair that a breeder mislead a buyer?Also we never were told desexing would help HD - we were advised to do at 4 months but will now investigate if delaying it will improve her chances against HD. I suppose i think it was a little naive to buy a pup from a breeder that was awaiting PRA results for the parents (and really unethical and stupid of the breeder!) and with a hip score of 7/7 (well its really 9/10) which is around the breed average, so not a dog that really should be bred from (they really should be well under the breed average). But yeah, i recognise it is unhelpful to dwell on the past....and i prob sounded like a b*tch, i apologise. i understand how stressful these things can be- my own dog is an allergy dog. I'm sorry if i sounded mean. But it sounds like you really love your pup and you've made heaps of progress with her training and socialisation . It would be a shame to give all that up for something that may or may not be a problem. My dog is from guide dog lines (very strict with their health testing) and has allergies Her parents haven't had allergy problems, yet several of her litter has been affected. They also never breed from dogs with greater than 0/0 elbows, yet i know of several dogs that have had elbow dysplasia and subsequently been rejected. So there is no guarantee with these multifactorial diseases.... sometimes it is just really good luck or bad luck that a dog gets affected Edited to say greater than 0/0- you cant get less!!! Edited March 17, 2011 by aussielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMedusa Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I think saying we did not check the hip scores first or worry about PRA is unfair - as we did both of these things - only thing is we were told the wrong info (in writing) our only naivety was to not get the actual certificate and confirm the breeder was being honest and as i have said earlier that we were aware that perfect parents hips does not mean perfect puppy. Do you think it is unfair that a breeder mislead a buyer?Also we never were told desexing would help HD - we were advised to do at 4 months but will now investigate if delaying it will improve her chances against HD. I suppose i think it was a little naive to buy a pup from a breeder that was awaiting PRA results for the parents (and really unethical and stupid of the breeder!) and with a hip score of 7/7 (well its really 9/10) which is around the breed average, so not a dog that really should be bred from (they really should be well under the breed average). But yeah, i recognise it is unhelpful to dwell on the past....and i prob sounded like a b*tch, i apologise. i understand how stressful these things can be- my own dog is an allergy dog. I'm sorry if i sounded mean. But it sounds like you really love your pup and you've made heaps of progress with her training and socialisation . It would be a shame to give all that up for something that may or may not be a problem. My dog is from guide dog lines (very strict with their health testing) and has allergies Her parents haven't had allergy problems, yet several of her litter has been affected. They also never breed from dogs with less than 0/0 elbows, yet i know of several dogs that have had elbow dysplasia and subsequently been rejected. So there is no guarantee with these multifactorial diseases.... sometimes it is just really good luck or bad luck that a dog gets affected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMedusa Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Keep her and love her! We lost our lab last year, she was diagnosed with HD when she was 12 months old and was 15 years old when she died. She never needed any treatment or medication for HD or arthritis. She lived inside and was exercised regularly. We now have a new lab puppy aged 16 weeks. Good luck with your puppy. I really hope you keep her! It might not be as bad as you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumblyjunior Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I think saying we did not check the hip scores first or worry about PRA is unfair - as we did both of these things - only thing is we were told the wrong info (in writing) our only naivety was to not get the actual certificate and confirm the breeder was being honest and as i have said earlier that we were aware that perfect parents hips does not mean perfect puppy. Do you think it is unfair that a breeder mislead a buyer?Also we never were told desexing would help HD - we were advised to do at 4 months but will now investigate if delaying it will improve her chances against HD. I suppose i think it was a little naive to buy a pup from a breeder that was awaiting PRA results for the parents (and really unethical and stupid of the breeder!) and with a hip score of 7/7 (well its really 9/10) which is around the breed average, so not a dog that really should be bred from (they really should be well under the breed average). But yeah, i recognise it is unhelpful to dwell on the past....and i prob sounded like a b*tch, i apologise. i understand how stressful these things can be- my own dog is an allergy dog. I'm sorry if i sounded mean. But it sounds like you really love your pup and you've made heaps of progress with her training and socialisation . It would be a shame to give all that up for something that may or may not be a problem. My dog is from guide dog lines (very strict with their health testing) and has allergies Her parents haven't had allergy problems, yet several of her litter has been affected. They also never breed from dogs with greater than 0/0 elbows, yet i know of several dogs that have had elbow dysplasia and subsequently been rejected. So there is no guarantee with these multifactorial diseases.... sometimes it is just really good luck or bad luck that a dog gets affected Edited to say greater than 0/0- you cant get less!!! Thanks for the reply - I just bridled at the thought anyone thinks we want to dump this pup at a hurdle - its not that as i have said it is the dishonest way we have been dealt with - anything can happen with a pup with all the cards in your favour and we are fully aware of that - but if someone is being dishonest first I dont want to be a victim of their c##p and I don't want any future buyers to be. Our dilemma is the future of this puppy and our family. Whatever the outcome with this puppy we will be taking it up with the AKC re her breeding practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumblyjunior Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Keep her and love her!We lost our lab last year, she was diagnosed with HD when she was 12 months old and was 15 years old when she died. She never needed any treatment or medication for HD or arthritis. She lived inside and was exercised regularly. We now have a new lab puppy aged 16 weeks. Good luck with your puppy. I really hope you keep her! It might not be as bad as you think! We really hope its not and are getting an opinion on Saturday - we already do love her. Good luck with you puppy - labs are the best - actually most dogs are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumblyjunior Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Keep her and love her!We lost our lab last year, she was diagnosed with HD when she was 12 months old and was 15 years old when she died. She never needed any treatment or medication for HD or arthritis. She lived inside and was exercised regularly. We now have a new lab puppy aged 16 weeks. Good luck with your puppy. I really hope you keep her! It might not be as bad as you think! We really hope its not and are getting an opinion on Saturday - we already do love her. Good luck with you puppy - labs are the best - actually most dogs are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'd keep her, and there is no way I would desex her before 18 months. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Please do not desex her at 17 weeks because the vet wants to xray her hips He may also tell you your pup requires expensive surgery that can only be done before the pup is 12mo You need to either give her back, or wait until she is older, keep her lean, dont over exercise her and she may be fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightgrace6 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Why don't you contact the breeder and ask *why* she/he felt like giving you the inaccurate score of the parents? Its kind of false advertising in a way and under new Consumer Laws the selling of dogs IS covered.. Ask them to pay for the test because you want to keep her and you love her... if she is in a bad way, I know it would be terribly hard but send her back.. to protect your family from heartbreak.. or.. join a very good pet insurance NOW.. I had a similar but very different situation with my new pup regarding her tail.... luckily when I decided to get surgery, the breeder offered to pay or have her back.. (please I was way to attached to give her back) so I just paid for it.. I refuse to blame by breeder for something that happened when I did not know how it eventuated. In your case, your breeder surely would have had both dogs tests done before he/she decided to breed? surely... When this happened to me (being a bit of a worry wart), fellow dolers suggested I talk to the breeder FIRST.. I was so worked up I didn't want too, but as soon as I did it sorted itself out.. Good luck with your pup.. I'm in SA too so if you come to the DOL meets or if you are near me I can recommend some excellent specialists and could probably have a crack at looking at the law for you too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumblyjunior Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Why don't you contact the breeder and ask *why* she/he felt like giving you the inaccurate score of the parents? Its kind of false advertising in a way and under new Consumer Laws the selling of dogs IS covered..Ask them to pay for the test because you want to keep her and you love her... if she is in a bad way, I know it would be terribly hard but send her back.. to protect your family from heartbreak.. or.. join a very good pet insurance NOW.. I had a similar but very different situation with my new pup regarding her tail.... luckily when I decided to get surgery, the breeder offered to pay or have her back.. (please I was way to attached to give her back) so I just paid for it.. I refuse to blame by breeder for something that happened when I did not know how it eventuated. In your case, your breeder surely would have had both dogs tests done before he/she decided to breed? surely... When this happened to me (being a bit of a worry wart), fellow dolers suggested I talk to the breeder FIRST.. I was so worked up I didn't want too, but as soon as I did it sorted itself out.. Good luck with your pup.. I'm in SA too so if you come to the DOL meets or if you are near me I can recommend some excellent specialists and could probably have a crack at looking at the law for you too... Thanks guys for all your advice everyone is basically saying things that have been running through our heads. We are not going to desex her just to save on an anaesthetic. We are going to get advice on her hips now and continue as we are with looking after her (to reduce her risk) - once we have seen the vet we are going to speak to the breeder and discuss what happened. We also think the AKC should be aware of such happenings. Our thoughts are for her (breeder) to pay for her penn hip xrays so we can assess the risk and if she chooses not to we will decide if we return her or peservere - she is our dog and we want her to be well and happy. We did not want to speak to breeder straight away because we were upset and wanted to think what was good for us first before getting into any discussions. We had top level pet insurance in place the day we got her (our old lab was an expensive baby to have ) Will keep you updated on events as they unfold - thanks all. Will be in on DOL meets def - she loves other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I suggest you return the pup now It seems you have no faith in the breeder ,This pup needs to have a future & the longer you hang on to it the more attached you will become & the pup shouldn't be stuck in the middle whilst you wait a few more weeks to decide whether to keep or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lolapalooza* Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 whatever you decide to do with her perhaps ask the breeder for more hip xray stats of the littermates and parents of the dam. If the dam's siblings have low hip scores this also adds to the chance that your girl will be just fine. I have read a few studies (dont ask me where?!) that believe horizontal pedigree data (including siblings of parents/grandparents into the big picture) is perhaps more indicative of future outcomes than vertical (just looking directly behind the puppies at the parents/grandparents themselves) if this makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemymutts Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 As someone else mentioned it is also in the upbringing of the pup. Feed good quality raw products & don't exercise too harshly. Feeding loads of puppy food can cause the puppy to grow without joints etc having the ability to catch up. I'm sure you will know in your mind though what you feel is better/right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 My boy was diagnosed at 9 months with HD - at 7 months he started showing signs of lameness... my vet did not detect it until 9 months when the limping got worse and xrays were carried out. It was a difficult time... His parents were below breed average, with the sire being 0/0. I never blamed the breeder and I never considered sending him back... he is turning 5 this year and while he has an unusual bunnyhop gallop, he is kept lean and is given low impact exercise (sand and swimming), he is on supplements and is still entire at the vets recommendation (muscletone is easier to maintain in an entire male). Good luck with whatever you decide, but don't let parents scores alone decide your puppies fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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