Hip Scoring, Hd, Ava Method

[ncarter]

Im just curious as to people's views on the effectiveness of the AVA screening method using x-rays as opposed to PennHIP. I read somewhere that the traditional AVA method has shown no improvement in the prevention of hip dysplasia in the last 20 years. I find this quite hard to fathom as ive seen on the DOL breed pages that most breeders of HD affected breeds still use this method. If it has not been improving health why do breeders continue to use it and not PennHIP?

[Miranda]

Im just curious as to people's views on the effectiveness of the AVA screening method using x-rays as opposed to PennHIP. I read somewhere that the traditional AVA method has shown no improvement in the prevention of hip dysplasia in the last 20 years. I find this quite hard to fathom as ive seen on the DOL breed pages that most breeders of HD affected breeds still use this method. If it has not been improving health why do breeders continue to use it and not PennHIP?

Where on earth did you read that? The BVA/AVA screening method has certainly greatly improved hip scores in my breed both here and in the U.K. PennHIP isn't highly regarded in the U.S. and when I attended a seminar given by the president of OFFA she was quite dismissive of the PennHIP method. I would never use PennHIP.

[MolassesLass]

The average breed score for Border Collies dropped 2 points between 2005 and 2009, that's improvement isn't it?

[ncarter]

Where on earth did you read that? The BVA/AVA screening method has certainly greatly improved hip scores in my breed both here and in the U.K. PennHIP isn't highly regarded in the U.S. and when I attended a seminar given by the president of OFFA she was quite dismissive of the PennHIP method. I would never use PennHIP.

This is what Dr Ark says in the latest dogs life, i thought it sounded dodgy so i just wanted to check.

[Miranda]

Where on earth did you read that? The BVA/AVA screening method has certainly greatly improved hip scores in my breed both here and in the U.K. PennHIP isn't highly regarded in the U.S. and when I attended a seminar given by the president of OFFA she was quite dismissive of the PennHIP method. I would never use PennHIP.

This is what Dr Ark says in the latest dogs life, i thought it sounded dodgy so i just wanted to check.

Who is Dr. Ark, I've never heard of him, does he specialise in hip dysplasia?

[ncarter]

Who is Dr. Ark, I've never heard of him, does he specialise in hip dysplasia?

I think his name is Michael Archinal, ive seen him on Kerri-Anne, no he doesnt specialise in hip dysplasia.

I disagree with half the stuff he says. i.e pups can come be homed at 7 weeks - they can have their 1st vaccination before then, dogs should never eat bones etc

Edited March 16, 2011 by ncarter

[Miranda]

Who is Dr. Ark, I've never heard of him, does he specialise in hip dysplasia?

I think his name is Michael Archinal, ive seen him on Kerri-Anne

Need I say more

Seriously I've looked him up and he specialises in dermatology, animal behaviour and acupuncture, perhaps he should stick to what he knows best.

[shortstep]

The average breed score for Border Collies dropped 2 points between 2005 and 2009, that's improvement isn't it?

It is not a meaningful indication of imporvement of hips in the breed.

Only if you have maditory reporting of all dogs tested and enough dogs being tested would it be meaningful.

When the current system has only a few dogs that are being screened, and it is owners choice to not report bad hips, then the numbers of this system will only reflect those dogs with normal hips that the owners (meaning breeders in most cases) selected to report.

It is hard to find any expert on HD that will not double or even triple the affected rates of HD if it is a voluntary reporting system.

What is the affected rate in Australian border collies? I would guess on the dogs reported it wil be next to none, however i would expect it to really be about 1 in 10 dogs as affected.

If the animal rights folks get their way, then all hip xrays done at your local vets will be documented via the automatic data collection systems, even those xrays that are not sent for scores. I believe they then switch over to the affected or normal tabulation method. Only then we might have a better idea of how bad HD is in the breeds.

BTW I was chating with some one just a few days who is reading xrays of border collie hips and then did not give the impression at all that everything was rosey.

Back to the OP questions.

There have been alot of studies done by OFA, PENN, by breed clubs, Unis, and as part of research on HD. The one thing you will find in almost all of the reports is which every one they want to promote will always seem to have the best results and the other methods will not have the best results.

PENN is a prediction of HD not a DX of HD. So even if you PENN you still need to xray later to find out if the prediction came true. In some breeds it has a better chance of accurate predictions than in other breeds. PENNs potential real value would be to make early selection (at 12 weeks) for potential breeding dogs. But few people are using it for this.

Edited to add. There are 2 major ideas on how to breed aganist HD.

One is to look at only the parents and select the best scored parents you can fine, for example a 0-0 to a 0-0, you do not look at the larger family picture. This might give you the best chance of getting one pup with the 0_0 socre, however it does not seem to produced consistant hips across the litter and there can even be siblings with HDas not a rare even.

The other method is to look at the exteneded families and a couple of generations. All siblings need to be screened of parents and grand parents litters and even half siblings can also be looked at. You look for dogs that come from families that did not have any HD, it is a mornal of affected way of judging the family history. This method does seem to have the best results for getting normal hips aross the whole litter in my opinion.

Most of those in science feel that most of the improvment in hips seen over the past 20 years is attributied to the removal of affected parents for the gene pool. Secondly the change in ideas about feeding pups, keeping pups lean, slowing down growth and reduceing calcium in the diet are also proving to have very good results in reducing severity of disease. So much so that some in genetics are now concerned the good rearing methods could actually be so effective that we might be actually inhibiting the expression of poor hips (this can also account for reduced scores over all in a breed).

To know if any of these systems will be really meaningfuly in breeding programs, you would have to select for hips as a #1 priority, in other words you actively go out and select only the dogs the very very best hips you can find and breed those dogs. Most people do not do that and nor should they as there is much more to a dog than good hips. Breeders would also have to be checking every pup they produced to have a true measure of how effective their methods were, this is seldom done by breeders. Most breeders only check the dogs hips they want to breed to see if fall in the nornal range.

Edited March 16, 2011 by shortstep

[SparkyTansy]

what shortstep said...

[Stolzseinrotts]

Great post Shortstep.

I will continue to use the BVA / Willis Scheme.

It gives a very clear picture of what we are looking at compared to some other systems out there that only give you an Excellent, Good or Fair etc and then you have A, B, C etc. and as well as all the other "gradings" I like to know where there are problems if any and the system we use here does give you a very detailed picture.

I will never use the PennHip System and I think after all this time if was that great, then surely it would be more popular by now.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Stolzseinrotts

[ncarter]

So with the BVA/ Willis scheme you can at least improve the incidence of HD in dogs you breed? But its harder to gauge if it works across a the whole breed in this country because few people report their score to some authority. BTW who is in charge of collecting all the results and analysing all the data that does come in?

From what i read about pennHIP it sounds more technical but more accurate, but i guess its very expensive for you breeders and you would have to find a vet that trained to do it.

Edited March 18, 2011 by ncarter

[ncarter]

Edited to add. There are 2 major ideas on how to breed aganist HD.

One is to look at only the parents and select the best scored parents you can fine, for example a 0-0 to a 0-0, you do not look at the larger family picture. This might give you the best chance of getting one pup with the 0_0 socre, however it does not seem to produced consistant hips across the litter and there can even be siblings with HDas not a rare even.

The other method is to look at the exteneded families and a couple of generations. All siblings need to be screened of parents and grand parents litters and even half siblings can also be looked at. You look for dogs that come from families that did not have any HD, it is a mornal of affected way of judging the family history. This method does seem to have the best results for getting normal hips aross the whole litter in my opinion.

Thanks for that. Im dont really understand how a) if you keep breeding dogs with low hip scores say nothing over 2 in both hips. You do this generation after generation for 10 generations or whatever. How come this doesnt flatten out the scores across the whole litter. How come you might get one with 2:8 crop up?

[marina]

Im just curious as to people's views on the effectiveness of the AVA screening method using x-rays as opposed to PennHIP. I read somewhere that the traditional AVA method has shown no improvement in the prevention of hip dysplasia in the last 20 years. I find this quite hard to fathom as ive seen on the DOL breed pages that most breeders of HD affected breeds still use this method. If it has not been improving health why do breeders continue to use it and not PennHIP?

I have had two of my Border Collie dogs Pen hip scored and AVA scored. Both of the results for these two dogs were comparable. I see no reason to change to Pen hip scoring as they both are as accurate as each other.

[shortstep]

Edited to add. There are 2 major ideas on how to breed aganist HD.

One is to look at only the parents and select the best scored parents you can fine, for example a 0-0 to a 0-0, you do not look at the larger family picture. This might give you the best chance of getting one pup with the 0_0 socre, however it does not seem to produced consistant hips across the litter and there can even be siblings with HDas not a rare even.

The other method is to look at the exteneded families and a couple of generations. All siblings need to be screened of parents and grand parents litters and even half siblings can also be looked at. You look for dogs that come from families that did not have any HD, it is a mornal of affected way of judging the family history. This method does seem to have the best results for getting normal hips aross the whole litter in my opinion.

Thanks for that. Im dont really understand how a) if you keep breeding dogs with low hip scores say nothing over 2 in both hips. You do this generation after generation for 10 generations or whatever. How come this doesnt flatten out the scores across the whole litter. How come you might get one with 2:8 crop up?

Because you are only looking at one dog from a family of dogs that goes back generations. All of those genes can and often are floating around in the dog you breed. If you only look at the dog you are breeding you are not looking at the biggest genetic picture of that dogs family. For example, That 0-0 dog could have had 2 siblings with HD. Then your litter with an 8-8score , and a 2-4 score, and your 26-23 affected pup and your 0-0 score dog would all look very much expected in a litter from that 0-0 dog eh?

HD is known to be several genes could be as many as 6-8, and there is also going to be genes for traits, that in themselves are not genes for HD. Just like rapid growth is known to be a risk trait for OCD, it will also likely be a risk trait for HD. When the genetic picture of a disease is large and complex, looking at single dog gives very little indication of what is really going on in the family.

For example I would pick a dog with 6-6 hips, from 3 generations of every dog scored (which means all the siblings) with normal range scores and none with HD, this paints a picture of a family that is not producing HD.

I would not pick a dog with 0-0 who had a sibling with HD, who's sire was also 0-0 but who had a half sibling with HD and 4 other siblings not scored, and who's grand sire was also 0-0 but had 3 siblings that were borderline HD. Even though on the surface 3 direct generations on the pedigree with 0-0 scores looks very good, it does not show the real picture, which is a family that is dipping in and out of HD in almost every generation.

Is this making sense?

Edited March 18, 2011 by shortstep

[ncarter]

yeah thanks for that. So is the BVA method working for you as a breeder? (just talking about lowering the incidence of HD within the dogs you breed)

[shortstep]

yeah thanks for that. So is the BVA method working for you as a breeder? (just talking about lowering the incidence of HD within the dogs you breed)

Sure. I am not too fussed about AVA or OFA, they work the same for me. I guess I like the number for each hip better in AVA. But knowing that you can take the same xray and send it to 4 readers and get 4 different socres, I look at scores more as a general indication rather then an absolute number. So personally, I think in general terms of normal or not normal, or excellent hips or good hips for example which is more like the OFA system.

What I do like very much about OFA is the large data collection thy have on line, and the dog serch.

The information you can pull out about your breed is fantastic and you can look up dogs by their name or even my their parents or kennel.

You can also bring up lateral pedigrees on any dogs which is what I was dicussing before with the family picture. I think all this is a great aid to both the breeder and the buyer.

Look at a few of these data banks

http://www.offa.org/stats.html

Also try out the 'By Breed ' serch towards the bottom of the page.

Then look at the advanced serch, so many options to search by and also see if you can bring up a lateral pedigree on a dog

http://www.offa.org/search.html?btnSearch=Advanced+Search

[Wags]

Im just curious as to people's views on the effectiveness of the AVA screening method using x-rays as opposed to PennHIP. I read somewhere that the traditional AVA method has shown no improvement in the prevention of hip dysplasia in the last 20 years. I find this quite hard to fathom as ive seen on the DOL breed pages that most breeders of HD affected breeds still use this method. If it has not been improving health why do breeders continue to use it and not PennHIP?

My vet raised exactly the same summation to me recently. PenHIP is done quite close to me, and although it's very expensive, I intend to do both the accepted xray (to comply with expectations) and the PenHIP on my adult dogs (for my own peace of mind). Having had the PenHIP explained to me it seems to be a far superior testing than the xrays, and give a much longer forecast. I believe the expenses are borne of a patent on the process and the fees that are required to use the process.

I did contemplate doing all my litters, but the expenses involved curtailed that - so the next best thing is to have my adults done.

[mirawee]

I had an interesting conversation with one of the top reproduction vets in WA a few years ago.

1) He does not believe that hip scoring has brought down hip scores.

2) He believes that any dog with a score of more than 0-0 has hip dysplasia. And when you think about it that is true!

3) He believes that too many vets operate on dogs who have "hip dysplasia" when they are too young (under 1yo).

So what score do people consider the dog to have "clinical" hip dysplasia at? I know of dogs who have had scores around 15:15 or even higher and they have never had a lame day in their life! Yet a dog may have been diagnosed as having hip dyspasia and score less than that.

[Wags]

I had an interesting conversation with one of the top reproduction vets in WA a few years ago.

1) He does not believe that hip scoring has brought down hip scores.

2) He believes that any dog with a score of more than 0-0 has hip dysplasia. And when you think about it that is true!

3) He believes that too many vets operate on dogs who have "hip dysplasia" when they are too young (under 1yo).

So what score do people consider the dog to have "clinical" hip dysplasia at? I know of dogs who have had scores around 15:15 or even higher and they have never had a lame day in their life! Yet a dog may have been diagnosed as having hip dyspasia and score less than that.

I guess it's really just a guide isn't it ..... the lower the score, the less liklihood of problems in the future. The best measure of anything is to monitor the offspring for any occurrences of any inherant problems, it's the best evidence of all, but unfortunately, not always possible 100%.

My vet works on % problems within a breeding programme (and has some horror stories to tell in regard to improper breeding practices by registered breeder I might add). On the rare occasions a problem raises it's ugly head, she's very quick to remind me that my percentage of problems is miniscule - it always helps to be reminded of this. Sometimes, try as you might to be as discerning as natural attrition would be, nature will throw in a glitch - disheartening as it can be, there's little we can do about that.

[kelpiesrule]

I had the opportunity of trying out PennHip when our Qld Uni was doing a comparison study between PennHip and AVA. I will never do PennHip... my dog and two other friends were so terribly lame when they left the Uni, each dog had a different score and my boy required chiro work a few times to get him back to normal, one of the dogs needed to be carried out. I know others had great results and were very happy, but I am very much against it now. No dog of mine has ever been lame after AVA scoring.

Plus there is also the cost of PennHip.. it is hard enough trying to get money togther for AVA, why would I pay more for another test?

I also think scores in some breeds are not getting better because people are still breeding with dogs with high scores... either because of a lack of gene pool or they believe the dog has alot to offer their breeding program. And until we test every dog in every litter like they do in some overseas countries, we are not going to get consistent scoring.

Hips can also be affected environmentally. Diet, exercise and just lifestyle in general.