Dominant Dogs

[corvus]

Some dogs, particularly herding breeds, seem hard-wired to want to control their surroundings to the nth degree. These are the ones that get called "alpha wannabes" because they want the control, but have to constantly struggle to get it. I have trouble with this concept. My previous dog was very keen to control her surroundings and was known as the fun police. She was happiest when she had been told firmly by every other dog in the household that she couldn't control them. It was like knowing that she had no way to control the situation resulted in surrender and she would relax and just keep her head down. She seemed much calmer and more content that way. I don't think she was an alpha wannabe in that she wanted to be high ranking. She just wanted to control the world. I guess that it made her feel secure. But being a small dog not hugely confident, that control was not easy to get for her.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

JoeK

I think you confuse an independent dog with dominant, but what you describe as dominant is not what I'd call a pack leader but the obnoxious wannabe - I've heard called a "beta" dog.

This page describes different dog personalities fairly well but I don't think it's very scientific (or it needs some research studies to confirm).

http://www.volhard.com/pages/pat.php

Mostly 6’s -

So independent that he doesn’t need you or other people

Doesn’t care if he is trained or not - he is his own person Unlikely to bond to you, since he doesn’t need you.

A great guard dog for gas stations!

Do not take this puppy and think you can change him into a lovable bundle - you can’t, so leave well enough alone

My dog actually scored mostly 1's and 2's (pack leader/wannabe) when she was little - ideally that's when you want to do the test - before the dog's personality is modified by training. I had to train out of her loads of chase and bite - which I put down to her being half (or so) heeler.

I don't actually have aspirations for her to be a pack leader, I'm not bothered by labels like "dominant" or "omega" (uber submissive). I'm happy she doesn't start fights, she prefers not to finish them either and she occasinally shows peacekeeper attributes - ie breaking up other dogs that get too rough, or telling off a dog for being rude (and it was a much bigger dog and it defered to her).

[toshman]

Turid Rugaas is the best person to read about dominance in dogs. I have a reference somewhere to something she wrote about it but I'm at work and can't look it up at the moment.....

Here is the piece on dominance by Turid Rugaas, this is a post she wrote to the DogRead yahoo list a few years ago when she was the guest writer. She is famous for her teaching on Calming Signals in dogs, and if you can get hold of her books or her DVDs she really is an interesting and insightful person....

Permission was given to re-post this... (Turid Rugaas is from Finland)

(<snip> Dominance and submission are words that are too much used, and in a lot of wrong places. I have often wondered why. The description of dominance is a creature's ability to make others around him/her obey, and in wolves and dogs that is very often a quiet, non-conflict-making individual, sure about himself and his abilities. Such dogs are not in big numbers - it is a rare gift. The ones I have observed up through the years have been the most pleasant dogs you can run across. I had one collie bitch like that. She never was in a conflict, and during the 13 years she lived she growled a little 2 or 3 times, - what she actually did was turning around and look at the one "sinner", and the look itself just made them either stop and do something else, give her a calming signal ("peace signal") or in a very few cases give a slight submissive signal. She never asked submission of them, she just looked, made them behave, and she left the arena as queen of the hill. - Another real dominant dog I knew was the most mellow dog around puppies and young dogs. They could almost harass him, biting him, hanging in his fur - he just turned his back on them. Another male might get a growl or a chin on his back if they were too forward, and they always gave in just like that. No submission, just giving in. I have actually never had or seen a dominant dog demanding submission from another, like demanding them to roll over, lie down belly up, or anything like that. - When people do things like that, they overdo things. I would never do it. It only scares the dog, it is far too much, and it might occur, but is far from usual in the dog's world.

A noisy, demanding dog is far from dominant. He is insecure, wants to climb, but does not have the talents of a leader. A dog like that is easily piped down. Dominance works between dogs. This is one of the areas where dogs seem to exclude humans, or keep it as a separate rank order, what do I know. I do not think anybody really knows.

There is too much talk about dominance and submission, and a lot of bad treatment, scaring the dog, is a result of what we think is dominance, but in fact is fear, defense or other things. I have never had any trouble being the human leader of my dogs, though I never use dominance actions, or demand submission. I just want them to listen sometimes, which is another thing.

Think about what a rank order really is. A pair of dogs (I am thinking free dogs, without human interference) get puppies. The puppies love and look up to their parents, grow up with respect and love for them, as canine parents are wonderful loving caring and patient with them. When the puppies are adult, the parents will still be their "leaders" as they have been all their lives. New puppies grow up, and there might be some quarrelling of rank order further down, seldom serious. But the parents keep their position.

I have stopped calling it leadership. I call it parenthood. If we can be good parents to our dogs, we will also be good "leaders" and we do not need to go around being dominant and demanding submission from our dogs. This has worked for me for 30 years, I feel very confident that this is really so, have never had any problems with any dog in this house, rehomed or not, and strongly believe too much is put upon actions of dominance - and often wrongly. <snip>

[Souff]

I think the term 'dominant' is overused. A lot of so called dominant dogs are just bossy, or like to stir trouble, or are possessive about desirable things. I don't believe a lot of behaviours people often have trouble with here on the forums is truly dominant. In the time I did rescue I believe out of so many dogs in care over time (about 100?) that only one was truly dominant and he genuinely scared the shit out of me.

Some people might think my Stafford is dominant as she always growls at other dogs when meeting, she is also fence aggressive but she's really very soft. I've had people call my Shih Tzu dominant, but really she's just a spoilt little princess who bitches when she doesn't get what she wants and likes growling and yapping at the others to let them know she 'aint happy.

I also think the term is over used, and probably misused. It has little to do with dogs resting heads on other dogs, that is more a matter of fraternity and personal comfort.

To me the dominant dog is the one who can walk into a room, and all the other dogs will look at her/him and seemingly say, "What was that you wanted, boss?"

The others do not take the lead, they fall in behind. The natural order. Recognise it and respect it, because otherwise there could be tears.

Dominant dogs command respect from other dogs in secret doggy language, and when a younger one decides to make a challenge, then everyone will know who is really in charge, and you will perhaps have another vet bill for antibiotics for the torn lips and bleeding ears. Sigh.

Souff

[Jigsaw]

It's interesting that the replies are covering mostly a dominant dog to other dogs. Is this dog dominant to humans as well as JoeK describes a dominant dog?

With regard to dogs being dominant to other dogs - while walking on a leash free beach with my dog one day I observed a man walking his two bull breed dogs on leash on the beach. A bitch and a dog, both quietly walking minding their own business. The was a large adolescent oodle running up and down the beach annoying most other dogs with it's in your face antics while his owner enjoyed her own carefree walk up the beach. The bull breeds were having a wade in the water when the oodle decided to pay them a visit. The male just lifted a paw and whack dropped the oodle with a paw on the shoulder and then held him under the water for a moment. It wasn't very long at all. The male's owner did not panic or interrupt, there was no tension or aggression overtly displayed by the dog. He let the oodle up, rather wet but subdued who scampered off back to mum who was down the other end of the beach. The other dogs just resumed their walk and left thereafter. I must admit I was a bit "oh wow'!

[Souff]

It's interesting that the replies are covering mostly a dominant dog to other dogs. Is this dog dominant to humans as well as JoeK describes a dominant dog?

With regard to dogs being dominant to other dogs - while walking on a leash free beach with my dog one day I observed a man walking his two bull breed dogs on leash on the beach. A bitch and a dog, both quietly walking minding their own business. The was a large adolescent oodle running up and down the beach annoying most other dogs with it's in your face antics while his owner enjoyed her own carefree walk up the beach. The bull breeds were having a wade in the water when the oodle decided to pay them a visit. The male just lifted a paw and whack dropped the oodle with a paw on the shoulder and then held him under the water for a moment. It wasn't very long at all. The male's owner did not panic or interrupt, there was no tension or aggression overtly displayed by the dog. He let the oodle up, rather wet but subdued who scampered off back to mum who was down the other end of the beach. The other dogs just resumed their walk and left thereafter. I must admit I was a bit "oh wow'!

Yep, that is a dominant dog. Good one too, knows how to get a message through to a nuisance dog, without a vet being needed.

If the dog is dominant to the humans, then there is a problem with the human who is supposed to be the dog's master - the human who is supposed to be the leader of the pack for the dominant dog to look up to and to take commands from.

[Jeff Jones]

There was a great youtube video displaying a dominant black German Shepherd interacting with various people it had never met before in a new environment. It was a great video which showed the over confident disposition of the dog and how it chose to interact with the people.

[moosmum]

Yes, my lot are dominant to humans as well,but have been taught good manners so that this is not generaly obvious to most,unless they have reason to be "told."

The oldest girl is the one who has universal respect with strange dogs giving in to her leadership right away...yet she is a very "polite" dog.She clearly sees herself as equall to us,her owners, in any company,dog or human.She rarely has to do more than give a poke with her nose to get any action to stop or a dog to listen.She has an incredible"roar" though that she uses now and again,mostly on pups or imature dogs.

Funny to watch a grown male Dobe who was being over excited and playing too rough retreat with his bum tucked in and saying "OOOOHH!!" at her roar.

With people,she is polite and very friendly as long as she is either off her home territory or if they have been addmitted.With out permission to enter they wont get in.(same with other 2)If once addmitted they break the rules,her actions will depend on the situation.Maybe just tell us ,maybe a soft growl and poke.Shes never had reason to do more and is very restrained so doesn't over react.

I don't see her as the most dominant,just a natural leader with universal love and respect.

The second bitch is a rougher diamond and less tolerant.We say she speaks once.She is more obvious in her body language and less restrained in her actions.She will give very clear warnings to people and dogs and they obey 1st time or pay the price.Shes learnet better restraint as she matures.She adores children and cats and has been known to growl at visitors who yell at their children while visiting.She is like a rock,immovable,calm and very no nonsense.

The 3rd is a very bossy girl.In every ones face if we let her get away with that,very friendly,but provocative at the same time.Learning better as she matures but so fast and sharp she has been the hardest to raise.Very high fight and drive to dominate thats obvious in her play.The rougher the better.Very gentle with pups,but demanding they give more all the time.Playing with one of her own pups who was a female and extremely dominant and fearless,she seemed to be trying to push the pup to her limmits getting rougher the longer the game went till we intervened as the pup was being tossed and still going back fopr more.

As a pup,when the oldest said "no play" this 3rd bitch would stand back out of range and bark with her bum up or run around her till the old girl gave in and got up to play.She is the irresistable force.

In a more natural setting with out human intervention I believe the 3rd would be the pack leader/dominant female.She is very proactive,inventive,determined,persistent and physicaly skilled.A natural hunter,brilliant on her feet,quick to react and likes to make things to happen.

All are very affectionate intelligent and trainable dogs who live on a farm very happily interacting with mini horses,free range chooks and often other animals.With welcome visitors the dogs are all friendly and well mannered to the extent that we have some times to demonstrate that the dogs can fire up if given good reason,so their good natures are not taken for granted(,ie at teen parties)yet they are very tolerant and protective of children.

Edited March 16, 2011 by moosmum

[JoeK]

There was a great youtube video displaying a dominant black German Shepherd interacting with various people it had never met before in a new environment. It was a great video which showed the over confident disposition of the dog and how it chose to interact with the people.

Mr Jeff,

I am remembering a dog imported to Australia, perhaps in working circle you may seen him called Fax vom Grenzganger probably 10 year ago mentioning the black Shepherd dog I am thinking yes?. Fax and also Iwo vom the Grenzganger were dominant dogs, beautiful stance with the gazing eye of intent, but never nasty dogs. There are many others of course, but the Fax is one dog perhaps maybe indentify the type of personality in the dominance I speaking of?

Joe

[jacqui835]

Question: I am liking all the definitions and explanations of dominant, and it still seems to fit my dog for the most part. But here is my question. Most dogs who see him give him the movie star treatement (I previously put it down to his good looks lol), lick his mouth, crouch down in front of him etc whilst he doesn't even look at them, or else they might ignore him except for a quick sniff, or want to play with him and sometimes he'll play a bit with them. But every now and then, I will see, usually before he does, another dog who I know will try to cause problems. They typically seek him out from across the park and beeline for him, holding themselves super erect and stiff etc. My dog doesn't start fights, but he seems to annoy the occasional male to the point (just by his mere presence) where I can see that they want to fight him and then my dog refuses to back down unless I intervene and shoo the other dog off (and pray that I never come up against a dog who will take on a human). So what happens if 2 dominant dogs come face to face - as I'm guessing this is what's happening in these cases?

[Jeff Jones]

There was a great youtube video displaying a dominant black German Shepherd interacting with various people it had never met before in a new environment. It was a great video which showed the over confident disposition of the dog and how it chose to interact with the people.

Mr Jeff,

I am remembering a dog imported to Australia, perhaps in working circle you may seen him called Fax vom Grenzganger probably 10 year ago mentioning the black Shepherd dog I am thinking yes?. Fax and also Iwo vom the Grenzganger were dominant dogs, beautiful stance with the gazing eye of intent, but never nasty dogs. There are many others of course, but the Fax is one dog perhaps maybe indentify the type of personality in the dominance I speaking of?

Joe

Hi Joe, The dog in the video was a Fax son. It was a good video but seems to have been taken down.

[Greytmate]

So what happens if 2 dominant dogs come face to face - as I'm guessing this is what's happening in these cases?

As long as both dogs are on lead and are apart, all you have to do is put your hand gently on the side of your dog's face, and redirect it to avoid eye contact.

You may be able to train your dog to look away with a verbal command too. Distraction is another tool you can use.

[Greytmate]

To give another answer to your question - If the dogs are uncontrolled by people, one dog may decide to avert their gaze. Unless this happens, a fight will ensue.

[Jed]

JoeK, have you imported GSD from guarding lines from Europe? Are you involved with training guard GSD?

[JoeK]

There was a great youtube video displaying a dominant black German Shepherd interacting with various people it had never met before in a new environment. It was a great video which showed the over confident disposition of the dog and how it chose to interact with the people.

Mr Jeff,

I am remembering a dog imported to Australia, perhaps in working circle you may seen him called Fax vom Grenzganger probably 10 year ago mentioning the black Shepherd dog I am thinking yes?. Fax and also Iwo vom the Grenzganger were dominant dogs, beautiful stance with the gazing eye of intent, but never nasty dogs. There are many others of course, but the Fax is one dog perhaps maybe indentify the type of personality in the dominance I speaking of?

Joe

Hi Joe, The dog in the video was a Fax son. It was a good video but seems to have been taken down.

Greetings Jeff

I think we reading on the same page with the dominance trait, as is not surprize to me learning of the Fax son. Fax was a very dominant dog, better dog (in my opinion) than his father Dolf ze Zakovy Hory (Czech lines). Dolf had the dominance and higher in the social aggression but hard dog to handle very reactive dog. Fax had the intent in his eyes, don't mess with me look, but was very calm stable dog until pressurised. Shame the youtube is not presenting video you speak, would have been good for demostration to the folks of dominance in the working dog that we speak.

Joe

[Clyde]

Is anyone else seriously loving Joe's accent?

[Greytmate]

Is anyone else seriously loving Joe's accent?

Yes.

[JoeK]

JoeK, have you imported GSD from guarding lines from Europe? Are you involved with training guard GSD?

Hello Jed,

I work for many years in Europe for training in Schutzhund and protection with the Shepherd dogs just as a hobby and part time working was very enjoyable. I work several kennels training the German Shepherd bitches for working tests for the registration, so involvement in breeding for selection of the trait and working ability was for long time in my area of work.

I don't train in Australia the protection dog because of the laws except for my wifes Labrador little bit, he bark on command, but would like another working Shepherd in the future to train definitely. I have been looking to import perhaps, but is expensive exercise from here but looking around to see what is happening.

Thanks

Joe

[moosmum]

There was a great youtube video displaying a dominant black German Shepherd interacting with various people it had never met before in a new environment. It was a great video which showed the over confident disposition of the dog and how it chose to interact with the people.

Mr Jeff,

I am remembering a dog imported to Australia, perhaps in working circle you may seen him called Fax vom Grenzganger probably 10 year ago mentioning the black Shepherd dog I am thinking yes?. Fax and also Iwo vom the Grenzganger were dominant dogs, beautiful stance with the gazing eye of intent, but never nasty dogs. There are many others of course, but the Fax is one dog perhaps maybe indentify the type of personality in the dominance I speaking of?

Joe

Hi Joe, The dog in the video was a Fax son. It was a good video but seems to have been taken down.

Greetings Jeff

I think we reading on the same page with the dominance trait, as is not surprize to me learning of the Fax son. Fax was a very dominant dog, better dog (in my opinion) than his father Dolf ze Zakovy Hory (Czech lines). Dolf had the dominance and higher in the social aggression but hard dog to handle very reactive dog. Fax had the intent in his eyes, don't mess with me look, but was very calm stable dog until pressurised. Shame the youtube is not presenting video you speak, would have been good for demostration to the folks of dominance in the working dog that we speak.

Joe

Yes, That would have been good to see.Any other you can think of Jeff?

[Jeff Jones]

There was a great youtube video displaying a dominant black German Shepherd interacting with various people it had never met before in a new environment. It was a great video which showed the over confident disposition of the dog and how it chose to interact with the people.

Mr Jeff,

I am remembering a dog imported to Australia, perhaps in working circle you may seen him called Fax vom Grenzganger probably 10 year ago mentioning the black Shepherd dog I am thinking yes?. Fax and also Iwo vom the Grenzganger were dominant dogs, beautiful stance with the gazing eye of intent, but never nasty dogs. There are many others of course, but the Fax is one dog perhaps maybe indentify the type of personality in the dominance I speaking of?

Joe

Hi Joe, The dog in the video was a Fax son. It was a good video but seems to have been taken down.

Greetings Jeff

I think we reading on the same page with the dominance trait, as is not surprize to me learning of the Fax son. Fax was a very dominant dog, better dog (in my opinion) than his father Dolf ze Zakovy Hory (Czech lines). Dolf had the dominance and higher in the social aggression but hard dog to handle very reactive dog. Fax had the intent in his eyes, don't mess with me look, but was very calm stable dog until pressurised. Shame the youtube is not presenting video you speak, would have been good for demostration to the folks of dominance in the working dog that we speak.

Joe

Yes, That would have been good to see.Any other you can think of Jeff?

Unfortunately no. I will try and have a look over the weekend for some videos but not many people post these videos online, they post the ones of them undertaking training / bite work. Doing a search on youtube is useless, every second person believes they own a dominant dog.