deefraser Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'm a proud owner of 3 purebreds, a Boxer, a Beagle and a Japanese Spitz. All of my dogs to this date have been rescued dogs. This time last year I decided I wanted to get a Japanese Spitz puppy as a companion for my youngest daughter who is special needs. At the end of March out little ball of fluff, Aurora, arrived, I feel a little stupid now as I didn't know much about the breeder and because of the distance away that she lived I was happy to select the puppy from photos and have her brought to me when she was old enough. At the end of last year I became concerned about her genitals being swollen so I took her to the vet, after the vet took her to another room to consult with the more experienced vet she brought my little girl back and informed me very seriously that Aurora was a hermaphrodite. I laughed, I thought she was pulling my leg! The $450 desexing bill convinced me very quickly that this was no joke. Now my little girl (yes I still call her my little girl) is facing more surgery to remove her penis bone and possibly a urinary tract resection. As a newcomer to the world of buying puppies in favour of rescued dogs I made some very serious mistakes when choosing the breeder however I guess my question would be, could this have been detected as a puppy? Did the breeder act irresponsibly by selling a puppy with such a serious genetic defect? In all honesty I probably still would have purchased her even if I would have known, after all she was not purchased for show or breeding, just as a companion. I might not have paid quite so much though knowing the amount I would have to spend in surgery (looking at about $2000 if she needs the urinary tract resection and about $800 for the removal of her penis bone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluefairy Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Wow I have never heard of this in an animal, except for Hyenas....but I guess it can happen. I can't answer your post as I have no idea. I just wanted to say sorry that you are now stuck with medical bills, that if you had of known about her condition, you could have had a choice or at least been prepared. I am still about it. At least she has a loving home, I could imagine she might have been PTS if someone with no money to afford the vet bills had of picked her. BF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I may be wrong, but I don't think that producing a hermaphrodite is genetic? As in, not passed through linage, but rather just a mutation? Still, it bears thinking about if there were any outward signs the breeder should have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If only female genitalia were visible, then there's no way the breeder could have picked it up. You dog would have had health checks done at puppy vaccinations, and if even the vet didn't detect it then, then the breeder hasn't done the wrong thing. There are so many differering degrees of Hermaphrodite. and its generally considered a congenital defect, that is just one of those things that occur in foetal development stage. Unless there was a known defect in the line. I've only seen three in many years of vet nursing. Have you been in contact with the breeder to discuss ? fifi fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I think it might be better to ask your vet - who has seen the dog - than to ask here. My judgment would be that if the genitals were very different from the norm, the breeder may have suspected that the dog was a hermaphrodite - but probably not. This is a quite rare condition which very few breeders have ever seen - or expect to see. In fact, very few vets have seen it either. How did the pup's genitals look to you? Normal, I presume? What led you to taking her to the vet for the problem? I knew people who brought a hermaphrodite thoroughbred - exhibiting as a stallion - at a sale. The horse had raced, their vet saw him and didn't suspect anything out of the ordinary. And they discovered it some months after they owned him. Sometimes difficult to diagnose. I would also ask the vet why the dog needs further surgery, and would hope that it is only being done for health reasons. I have no idea what the implications of doing, or not doing surgery, but I would be ensuring that I wasn't paying for an learning experience for the vet Sorry to sound cynical. Perhaps you should contact the breeder, and discuss this? They may be willing to consider a refund or partial refund - although I suspect in law - unless the dog obviously had different sex organs readily visible - they would be considered "not to expect that problem to happen". And, in the interests of fairness, you need to consider that. Was this a registered breeder with your state's CC or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I don't think the breeder should be held responsible ..unless there were visible male genitalia it would have been hard to diagnose on normal day to day checks ... If it took you from March until the end of the year to notice/worry , then I am presuming there wasn't much that was obvious. I have seen lhermaphrodite kangaroos ..with an external penis,and pouch ..they are very obvious . I hope the surgery goes well if you have it done .. except for Hyenas. these are not actually hermaphrodite, but have very enlarged clitoris ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 As far as I know the condition is the result of a manufacturing defect, way back in the development of the embryo, and not an inherited issue. I have seen 2 in half a century with dogs and in all my years of Vet Nursing, and in both cases the condition was not apparent until the pups had left the breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deefraser Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 From what I have been told it is a very rare genetic mutation, this is not hereditary. The senior vet whom my vet consulted with had only ever seen one before in the 20+ years that he has been practising. And to Bluefairy, I was in shock myself for quite some time, I didn't think this was even possible! as an ex-foster carer (I can not have male dogs near her at all so I had to give that up and keep her seperated from my beagle) and mother to several mature adopted dogs I doubt I could find any excuse in the world that would make me give up any of my dogs no matter what the cost to me. It occurrs to me that the question may be asked, how did I not notice that my girl dog had male genitalia so I figured I might answer this before it's asked. Please excuse the detail... Aurora does not have a conventional penis, she has the male penis bone inside her body, the swelling of her female gentials is caused by the bone pushing on them from the inside. Aurora's ovaries and testicles were infact the same thing, this is not terribly common even with hermaphrodites apparently. The vet suspects they were also producing both hormones. I could have had this confirmed however I really did not want to add to the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 If you couldn't tell then chances are the breeder couldn't tell either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huga Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I once fostered a lovely little female greyhound (she was young), who went in to be desexed and the vet found little testes inside her. Her vulva was also enlarged. She was a funny little thing, had a gorgeous temperament, but was very little for a greyhound and kind of stocky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Flying Furball Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 It sounds like one of those freakish things of nature that the breeder had no idea about, if not obvious when younger. Lucky your little dog got you who will see her/him right. I guess she will stay a she to you! If it was me I wouldn't be able to resist telling the breeder though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deefraser Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 It sounds like one of those freakish things of nature that the breeder had no idea about, if not obvious when younger. Lucky your little dog got you who will see her/him right. I guess she will stay a she to you! If it was me I wouldn't be able to resist telling the breeder though! Sadly I have not been able to contact the breeder I am happy to say that Aurora is a happy healthy little girl (except for the obvious problem) who likes to play "who can jump higher" with my boxer which gives the whole family hours of laughter (the boxer is winning, the ornaments are losing) and she loves to chase the kids around the house, because of her protuding genitals she is not allowed outside much due to the risk of infection but she certainly makes sure she gets heaps of exercise inside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I once fostered a lovely little female greyhound (she was young), who went in to be desexed and the vet found little testes inside her. Her vulva was also enlarged. She was a funny little thing, had a gorgeous temperament, but was very little for a greyhound and kind of stocky. Bertie was special. She was one of two hermaphrodite greyhounds I rehomed. The other one was registered and raced as a female, but when we had her desexed, she had male bits inside. It is extremely rare. You cannot blame the breeder, because we don't know what causes it, and we don't even really guess the dog isn't really female until surgery confirms it isn't. Both these dogs made wonderful pets. I hope your dog gets the surgery it needs and is a great dog like the two that I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huga Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Bertie was lovely I still think about her every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) There are lots of ways a dog can end up intersex. Inheriting an abnormal assortment of sex chromosomes, or anything that interferes with the differentiation of the gonads or external genitalia, can do it. I do know that intersex conditions in dogs are sometimes inherited (sometimes a simple autosomal recessive, sometimes X-linked, sometimes of unknown mode of inheritance), but I have no idea if they're always inherited, or what the ratio of inherited to de novo cases is. ETA - I agree with Fifi that if neither you nor your vet noticed it before this then it's entirely reasonable that your breeder may not have noticed it either. Also agree with Jed that I'd ask the vet why she needs more surgery - it's possible she does need it for some reason, e.g. if they think she'll have issues urinating or if the penis bone is irritating her, but IMO there's no point doing it just to make her look more "normal". Edited March 13, 2011 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deefraser Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 e.g. if they think she'll have issues urinating or if the penis bone is irritating her, but IMO there's no point doing it just to make her look more "normal". The only reason I am considering surgery is because of the possible risk of infection. Because of the location and size or her penis bone it makes her female genitals protrude out. Something as minor as sitting on concrete and scratching it can cause infection. I would not even consider it just to make her look normal, she is extremely unique and very special to the whole family just how she is Thankyou all for your feedback :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 did you contact the breeder at any time and explain the situation to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I understood the op was unable to contact the breeder. As the op has not said, I think the pup is not from a registered breeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Cordy's Rescue years ago had a litter of pups, from memory they were purebreds and I think from memory three were intersex...genetic or congenital? *shrugs* You'd need to speak to someone who specialises in that kind of thing. Was the Breeder to blame...well no of course not if both sets of genitals were not clearly visable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I don't know about it in dogs, but know it can be genetic in other mammals. We used to breed dairy goats, and intersex in goats is linked with the gene that produces a naturally hornless (polled) individual. So poll to poll should never be bred. Intersex goats can have either or both genitals, or female ones - but an excessively "male" way of behaving. I would think it's possible that dogs could carry a defect for intersex and not show it, but when bred with another "carrier" of a similar gene it could appear. But unless it was linked to a physical charateristic (like in goats) it would be hard to predict until it occurred. It does sound in this case like it may have been hard to diagnose. I'm glad she's a happy individual though - hopefully her surgery works out and she can avoid infections and too many restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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