koalathebear Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) Because an animal doesn't have a deformity makes it more of value and worth. I see, numbers being saved over each life being saved. It seems really easy to put a dog to sleep, convenient. I would have thought that this was a unique positive story... Me, too. If there are people who want to look after this dog because they have bonded with it, love it and are prepared to look after it with time and effort, then they should be applauded and not told that the thing they love should be put down. Dogs are not fungible commodities - if someone loves THIS dog and wants to adopt it notwithstanding its disability, I don't think that it's as easy as saying: "Oh there's a perfectly healthy dog over there in the pound that you should spend time on instead of wasting good time and money on a defective dog." How far do you take this rationale anyway? "Why adopt this ugly dog when there are heaps of good-looking dogs at the pound?" While I appreciate that there's a huge divide between humans and dogs, it's a bit like telling the parent of a handicapped child (whether biological or adopted) that they shouldn't waste their time on a defective child that has impaired quality of life when there are healthy kids out there that need adoption. It is THIS child/dog that they love and have bonded with and want to 'waste' their time, love and money on. As far as I can see, no one is asking/telling anyone who doesn't want to adopt an impaired dog to adopt one and if there are people who want to do that then all well and good. No one is telling you even to donate money, time, thoughts or prayers towards such dogs. Statistically, there are still a hell of a lot more people out there who want to rescue/adopt a healthy dog over a disabled one. I find it strange that on the same forum that has people up in arms about pet evacuation procedures and the "my dog is part of my family, I'd rather die than leave it behind", there are also people saying that a dog (who appears to be quite beloved) should be put down because it's disabled and making the call that it has no quality of life when it looks like it actually still does have some quality of life. Yeah it's paralysed and incontinent - that doesn't mean it has no right to live Defective dogs shouldn't be bred from but if one's already there, still has some quality of life and there is someone there to love it and care for it - I see no reason that it should be killed, especially if those advocating the dog's death are puffed up with some sort of misguided and sanctimonious notion of "it's for its own good" and going so far as to judge others for caring for such dogs :D Flame away - the fur is extra fire-resistant today Edited March 13, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tara and Sam Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 He looks like a happy little mite not worried at all about the situation just moving on and being happy. He looks loads happier than some healthy dogs I have seen.I found it inspirational the video made me laugh and cry but mostly because he just looks so darned happy. He has no trouble getting around with or without wheels and plays with the other dogs just fine. Good on them for helping him. He deserves a chance to live and be loved. I also thought he looked happy running around he was enjoying himself so much who ever invented his wheels did a great job he can certainly move in them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottnBullies Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Defective dogs shouldn't be bred from but if one's already there, still has some quality of life and there is someone there to love it and care for it - I see no reason that it should be killed, especially if those advocating the dog's death are puffed up with some sort of misguided and sanctimonious notion of "it's for its own good" and going so far as to judge others for caring for such dogs :D Flame away - the fur is extra fire-resistant today Yes well they need to justify their actions somehow, otherwise they could be seen as being heartless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Defective dogs shouldn't be bred from but if one's already there, still has some quality of life and there is someone there to love it and care for it - I see no reason that it should be killed, especially if those advocating the dog's death are puffed up with some sort of misguided and sanctimonious notion of "it's for its own good" and going so far as to judge others for caring for such dogs :D Flame away - the fur is extra fire-resistant today Yes well they need to justify their actions somehow, otherwise they could be seen as being heartless This dog is for sale. If it was loved by somebody, it wouldn't be up for sale. In some parts of Australia it is illegal to sell dogs like this. The dog may look happy as a pup, but with those deformities it is likely that the dog will have problems during its life that will cause it a lot of pain. I would rather see the resources put into saving many healthy dogs than one deformed dog. Nothing sanctimonious about that at all. I can't look at one dog in isolation without thinking about the bigger picture of rescue, and the best ways to save the largest number of dogs from being killed. This topic would probably have some different responses if posted on the rescue forum. I would also really wonder why somebody would be attracted by an advertisement for a deformed dog, and whether that is really healthy. Is it a dog they want, or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Defective dogs shouldn't be bred from but if one's already there, still has some quality of life and there is someone there to love it and care for it - I see no reason that it should be killed, especially if those advocating the dog's death are puffed up with some sort of misguided and sanctimonious notion of "it's for its own good" and going so far as to judge others for caring for such dogs :D Flame away - the fur is extra fire-resistant today Yes well they need to justify their actions somehow, otherwise they could be seen as being heartless What actions? This dog is for sale, and I don't think there is a reasonable justification to sell a dog like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie P Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 What a little trooper. Sad about his situation. Surprised anyone would put so much effort in and then just sell him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Defective dogs shouldn't be bred from but if one's already there, still has some quality of life and there is someone there to love it and care for it - I see no reason that it should be killed, especially if those advocating the dog's death are puffed up with some sort of misguided and sanctimonious notion of "it's for its own good" and going so far as to judge others for caring for such dogs Flame away - the fur is extra fire-resistant today Yes well they need to justify their actions somehow, otherwise they could be seen as being heartless What actions? This dog is for sale, and I don't think there is a reasonable justification to sell a dog like that. If a registered breeder tried to sell or place a dog like that they would be crucified. Double standards at their worst. Responsible breeders pts any deformed puppy and never dream of passing the problem on to anyone else. Some may run on a defective puppy if is it is capable of leading a normal life for a short time but defective puppies should never leave the breeder. That includes heart defects and yes, sometimes deaf puppies as well because most of them end up dying young in tragic accidents. Deformed puppies happen all the time but no one ever gets to see if they turn out "cute" because responsible breeders pts. Dogs are a mulit progeny animal and nature never intended for every puppy to survive. I believe in quality of life over life at any cost and have no idea why anyone would want to keep a defective puppy alive to suffer ongoing health problems. Just because a puppy "looks happy" doesn't mean it isn't suffering terribly. Some perfectly healthy, happy dogs never look happy because of the shape of their face and conversely some dogs can look happy while suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 It was a foster dog that they helped. that is like putting a dog down because it is deaf! i think that is cruel! I don't....especially when I deal with them coming through rescue when they don't often get re-homed because of peoples inability to train them, many experincing anxiety...they are a defective dog and not just the deafness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 What a little trooper. Sad about his situation. Surprised anyone would put so much effort in and then just sell him. It isn't surprising. There are people out there looking for tragic cases that they can feel good about rescuing, and get a lot of attention for rescuing. Once they have achieved that, the dog no longer serves any purpose to them, so they sell it and move on to the next dog. Buying a rescue dog can be a really good way to get a fantastic dog, but the more people that use 'rescue' to fulfil their own need to be seen as an 'angel', rather than to help a number of dogs go to good families, the fewer people will think of rescue as being the place to get a good dog from. This type of rescue encourages the public perception that rescue dogs are second quality, and that simply isn't true of dogs from the well run rehoming organisations. That hurts all rescue organisations, and means that long-term, more dogs will end up being killed instead of rescued. I get enjoyment from knowing that fantastic dogs I have rehomed are out there improving the lives of the families that bought them. I feel sorry for people that have had problems occur with their dogs that make life a little harder. I don't understand a mentality where somebody would want to own a pup with a very serious defect rather than a healthy one. Overall I am glad I helped so many dogs, by allocating resources to achieve the maximum number of good dogs sold and people made happy by them. Pouring a large amount of resources into a dog like this seems a bit small-minded to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 And for those who think euthanasing a dog with ongoing problems is 'cruel' ... it isn't , usually .. it is merely another needle,to the dog. I don't understand a mentality where somebody would want to own a pup with a very serious defect rather than a healthy one. I agree with what greytmate has said here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMAK Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 There are people out there looking for tragic cases that they can feel good about rescuing, and get a lot of attention for rescuing. Once they have achieved that, the dog no longer serves any purpose to them, so they sell it and move on to the next dog. I don't know what makes you say this, very strange behaviour to think that they are only saving them for attention? i have become attached to every single foster that i have had come into my care, if i didn't like dogs i certainly would not be fostering and every one i know that fosters has the same opinion. People rescue and foster .. because they like giving and the feeling they get from helping another in need not for attention, greed but for the sake in saving a life in need even if it has two legs or four. Most often pounds will not pay for any surgery for dogs with cuts, or who are sick etc. example: In the paper the other week, the pound wouldn't pay to get dead puppies out of a grey hound, the dog was getting very ill and was going down hill fast. Rescue had to come along and save this dog because the pound wouldn't save it and didn't give a shit about the dog or it's puppies, pretty sure the rescue were not looking for attention but the feeling they have done the right thing by the dog so it didn't die even when they didn't have the money! and are still fitting the bill. And recues being second quality?, all dogs are individual people choose they dog they are after they don't look at other dogs and think it gives them a bad rep. no dog is perfect, nearly all will have problems with one thing or another after coming from a pound or puppy farm. that is what rescue is about saving a life and giving them a second chance, limb no limb it is still a dog needing help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMA Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 What a brilliant dog Popeye is! Full of so much guts & determination which a lot more than I've seen in some humans. Thanks Catherine for sharing. It's great to know that there's people who do rescue work, not because its about a numbers game or about money, but because of love & compassion. And I couldn't agree more with what you've said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) If a registered breeder tried to sell or place a dog like that they would be crucified. Double standards at their worst. Responsible breeders pts any deformed puppy and never dream of passing the problem on to anyone else. Some may run on a defective puppy if is it is capable of leading a normal life for a short time but defective puppies should never leave the breeder. That includes heart defects and yes, sometimes deaf puppies as well because most of them end up dying young in tragic accidents. Deformed puppies happen all the time but no one ever gets to see if they turn out "cute" because responsible breeders pts. Dogs are a mulit progeny animal and nature never intended for every puppy to survive. I do see what you're saying but I still think that rescue dogs and dogs sourced from a responsible breeder should, by necessity, be subject to different tests otherwise rescue can't really continue to exist. Rescues have a responsibility to temperament test dogs and not rehome dogs who are aggressive or have other behavioural issues. The thing is, regardless of the most thorough of testing - there can be months or years to a rescue dog's life where we don't know what happened. People who get a rescue dog know that they are getting a dog that potentially has emotional baggage/issues/unknown elements to its past. Not necessarily bad things, but there are some potential mysteries there and the dog probably didn't get the best possible start in life. People who acquire a rescue dog are presumably making a conscious decision that they want to give a dog (that's probably had a rough start) a second chance at life. By contrast, a dog from a responsible breeder should have received the best possible start to life - this rigour and care going in even years before the dog is born. The dog should have been sourced from the best and healthiest lines, the dog is socialised and raised with care and responsibility before going to a home that is chosen for it. With these expectations and parameters, you would expect the best possible quality dog from a responsible breeder, along with post-sale support and a money-back guarantee for certain health conditions. A responsible breeder does, by necessity, cull defective animals from its lines. In the case of rescue, the horse has frequently already bolted. The dogs are frequently already born, have personalities and have the ability to form emotional attachments with people. It is just not possible to have the same degree of knowledge about most rescue dogs because its past and parentage and frequently a mystery. In any case, the two are different 'sectors', to be honest. Distilled down to its most basic premise, rescue is supposed to be taking dogs from a bad situation (frequently dogs who are at the point of being euthanised) and giving them another shot at life. Ideally, it is not supposed to be a business and the fee for the dogs is, in principle, simply meant to cover medical costs etc. By contrast, breeders may not be a business but it differs from rescue in the sense that its underlying premise is not a purely altruistic/philanthropic venture. Yes, breeders may be breeding at a loss and have motives of bettering the breed - but I don't think these are the elements that underpin philanthropy. So in an ideal world, a rescue dog would be as perfect as you could get it before it is rehomed but I think that in reality, those that take on a rescue dog are taking it on in the knowledge that there may be a few surprises in the mix, much the same way that those of us with crossbreeds know that we're going to be thrown something unexpected now and then. What I'm trying to say is that while it makes sense to me why people would choose to terminate the life of a deformed puppy for certain reasons, I can also see reasons why someone else who has already bonded with a dog may believe that it has the right to live and the chance at happiness.. It's not a particularly clear-cut a decision to me and so it feels wrong to judge. I've seen people on this forum judging others for euthanising their dogs too early/too late - as there's probably no right and wrong answer there, this is a similar situation. I believe in quality of life over life at any cost and have no idea why anyone would want to keep a defective puppy alive to suffer ongoing health problems. Just because a puppy "looks happy" doesn't mean it isn't suffering terribly. Some perfectly healthy, happy dogs never look happy because of the shape of their face and conversely some dogs can look happy while suffering. This may be true, but how do any of us ever know if a dog is truly happy? We can only go on body language, cues and behaviour that are consistent with happiness. I have known people who are very experienced dog-owners who have dogs that have 3 legs/2 legs etc and have appeared 'happy' and would have been horrified at the notion that they should put their beloved dog to sleep. Everyone has a different concept of when a life is worth living and as yet, we don't have a definitive answer on which of us is right and which is wrong. If we did, euthanasia laws would be consistent. And for those who think euthanasing a dog with ongoing problems is 'cruel' ... it isn't , usually .. it is merely another needle,to the dog.I don't understand a mentality where somebody would want to own a pup with a very serious defect rather than a healthy one. I agree with what greytmate has said here... As far as I can see, people rescue for a variety of reasons. There are some who stick a particular breed, there are some who like to rescue the golden oldies who they feel deserve to live out their declining years in a loving home rather than at a pound. There are even those who take on the older dogs with cancer just so that they can make sure that they can have some love and care before they die. In all these cases, critics could query the motives and rationality of the rescuers - choosing to select one group over another, in the case of the elderly and sick - 'wasting' money and time when other more healthy dogs could be rescued with the same time and money ... The thing is, rescue is motivated by emotional reasons so people's reasons for rescuing will vary. Thankfully we still live in a pluralistic society so that even if there are some who judge others for the reasons why they rescue, it's just that - a subjective judgement that is not necessarily right or valid. To those who have been disenchanted by rescuers who do it for self-gratification and put their own needs before the animals, this is of course very sad and disappointing for you and I feel very sad that you've had to see such an unpleasant side of people. Nonetheless, people in rescue are humans and subject to the same weaknesses and strengths as you would find in any other organisation. Regarding "acting in self-interest" observation, I've seen the same 'self-fulfilment' drive in multinational NGOs, international corporate lawyers, investment bankers .. the list goes on. The bad apples don't necessarily have to taint the whole cart. Whether you're doing good because you're think you're going to heaven, being reincarnated into a good life, getting the Order of Australia or being praised on facebook - the recipient of a good deed is probably happy to have something good happen to him/her/it. Also, I've seen criticism of rescues that take only the purebreds and the 'cute' dogs that aren't even at risk, leaving the big, more difficult to home brindle boofers to others - then again, one can also argue that this frees up valuable pound space, gives more time for those on the PTS list and so actually does result in some good in the end. As someone on the edge of rescue, I've met quite a few down to earth, lovely rescuers who rescue one dog at a time, do it with no fanfare and are just wanting to do their small part to make things better and do no harm. I think it's simplistic to say that a few less than optimal situations will lead to the public generalising and tarring all of rescue with the same brush - it assumes that most people are stupid and despite what people might conclude from reading dog fora, most people aren't stupid. I very much hope that Popeye finds a wonderful loving home with people who will love and care for him. Edited March 14, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 There are people out there looking for tragic cases that they can feel good about rescuing, and get a lot of attention for rescuing. Once they have achieved that, the dog no longer serves any purpose to them, so they sell it and move on to the next dog. I don't know what makes you say this, very strange behaviour to think that they are only saving them for attention? I have dealt with hundreds of potential adopters and foster carers, and it was part of my job to examine what their needs and desires were to best match them with the right dog. Most people want a dog because they like dogs and they want to be able to do dog things with their dog. They don't like having problems with dogs. Reading this forum over the last few years gives an extra valuable insight into what makes people happy about dogs, what they expect from them, and what upsets them or makes dog ownership difficult or problematic. But there are odd people out there , many of which come across as very caring, who revel in the attention they can gain by having a dog that is more needy than most. Because it makes them feel needed. That is fine to want to feel needed, but it isn't always a sound reason to get a dog with high needs. Especially if it is more about how a person wants to be perceived, than how they really are. Often the truth of owning a high-needs dog is only really discovered after some time, or it becomes less rewarding over time as the dog matures. This can spell disaster for the dog. This person posting the You Tube video has certainly attarcted a lot of attention here. But how many people reading this thread go into the rescue forum, and read about all of the good people saving dozens of quite ordinary dogs and making a really big difference? Isn't that inspirational? And recues being second quality?, all dogs are individual people choose they dog they are after they don't look at other dogs and think it gives them a bad rep. Many people will not consider getting a rescue dog because of a false perception that these dogs are not as good as a dog from a breeder. When in fact a dog from a good rescue is going to be a better bet than a dog from a poor breeder. I would like people to know that they can easily get an excellent dog from a good rescue or a good breeder. no dog is perfect, nearly all will have problems with one thing or another after coming from a pound or puppy farm.that is what rescue is about saving a life and giving them a second chance, limb no limb it is still a dog needing help. Not all dogs do have problems. Even ones from pounds or puppy farms. It is up to people selling dogs to do what they can to ensure the dogs they sell have all their serious problems solved, and not look for people that want to adopt a particular dog purely out of pity. No dog is perfect, but most people are happier with imperfections and individuality instead of deformation and novelty and pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) As someone on the edge of rescue, I've met quite a few down to earth, lovely rescuers who rescue one dog at a time, do it with no fanfare and are just wanting to do their small part to make things better and do no harm. I think it's simplistic to say that a few less than optimal situations will lead to the public generalising and tarring all of rescue with the same brush - it assumes that most people are stupid and despite what people might conclude from reading dog fora, most people aren't stupid.I very much hope that Popeye finds a wonderful loving home with people who will love and care for him. You seem to have a few assumption about what rescue dogs are and you seem to think that problems in them are inherant or expected. Rather than assuming you are stupid, I will put it down to you not having examined rescue issues in much depth, and knowing little about formal or informal foster assessment. There are many reasons why buying an adult dog that has been assessed is a lot more reliable than buying and raising a puppy, and can result in a much better dog. An adult dog has a fully formed personality and can be much more predicatble than an undeveloped pup that only has a potential for good personality. If rescue publicised the good dogs more, and the faulty dogs less, maybe people like you wouldn't have such a warped perception of what rescue dogs can be. The market for people that want to take on problems is quite small, and there is no reason for rescue to concentrate its activities on this tiny section of the pet buying community. Instead we need to focus on the advantages of buying a rescue dog from a well-run organisation. To prevent such a high number of good dogs having to be wasted. Edited March 14, 2011 by Greytmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) You seem to have a few assumption about what rescue dogs are and you seem to think that problems in them are inherant or expected.Rather than assuming you are stupid, I will put it down to you not having examined rescue issues in much depth, and knowing little about formal or informal foster assessment. There are many reasons why buying an adult dog that has been assessed is a lot more reliable than buying and raising a puppy, and can result in a much better dog. An adult dog has a fully formed personality and can be much more predicatble than an undeveloped pup that only has a potential for good personality. If rescue publicised the good dogs more, and the faulty dogs less, maybe people like you wouldn't have such a warped perception of what rescue dogs can be. The market for people that want to take on problems is quite small, and there is no reason for rescue to concentrate its activities on this tiny section of the pet buying community. Instead we need to focus on the advantages of buying a rescue dog from a well-run organisation. To prevent such a high number of good dogs having to be wasted. I am am not a rescuer so of course am not as fully cognisant to the details as you. Thanks for the information, as always your posts are very thought-provoking if one can get past the somewhat caustic delivery. Thank you for not calling me stupid but I also do not think that I have a warped perception, quite the contrary, I am always open to receiving new information and views. Judging by your actions and experience, I am sure that off-line you is a very admirable, kind compassionate person and it's just unfortunate that I've only ever been able to perceive you via your forum posts. I'll bow out of this conversation as you always seem to take quite an antagonistic stance towards my posts when my original intention is not to provoke. I can only assume that I must have wronged you horribly in a past life, in which case I sincerely apologise to Past Life Greytmate for the actions of Past Life Koala - I'm sure she didn't mean to do wrong Have a great day! Edited March 14, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartok Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I think if you watch all the you tube clips of popeye he is a great dog He obviously is happy zipping around on his wheels in the dog park and whilst not running on 4 legs free, he is off and having a great time. He is dog and ppl friendly and is obviously very loved regardless if in a foster situation or not. Keep your tyres pumped popeye. Enjoy boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinsella Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 The dog certainly looks happy. But, let's face it, he knows no better. The question that comes to my mind is always "What motivates someone to go to these lengths with a dog with such a poor outlook?" There can never have been a chance that a normal life was a possible outcome. I find this a text book example of Conspicuous Compassion. Take the cameras and attention away and what is left? An animal leading a half life and a human dislocating their shoulder patting themselves on the back for caring so much. Rather distasteful, actually. Like the story in the news section re dogs short a couple of legs, these dogs will never have the chance of an existence with self sufficient basic function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Kinsella .. that is well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartok Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I just wonder why we think that things that are "perfect" can't live a fantastic life Why do Snr dogs get saved? Why not just bump them off as they have limited time anyway and why waste resources Why save a blind or deaf dog? I am sure there are cases where it is better for the animal to be PTS but I dont think so in Popeye case He looks very loved and very happy. What motivates ppl to do it? I don't know, maybe out of alot of sadness (as u get fostering) there see hope Maybe they are just very loving and compassionate people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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