MissMaddy Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Ok, so first question; How do I get my membership here so I can reply to posts as a registered breeder? Second is more a bit of an appeal for knowledge and previous experiences. My GSD bitch is 4 years old and was mated for the first time in January. She was ultrasounded at 4 weeks and in whelp, but only a small number. She was then x-rayed Thursday for numbers, and there was a comment that what we saw on x-ray was not developed enough for her gestation, and may not be live puppies. We saw what looked like 3 puppies, but with not a lot of bone formation. They suggested a repeat x-ray Tuesday free of charge. Not being happy with just not knowing, I got a second opinion from another vet who does more repro work. She looked at her and didn't think she looked in whelp, so did an ultrasound. There were no puppies, so she has obviously reabsorbed what was there. She didn't suggest antibiotics or any other treatment, and said as she's still acting in whelp, she should return to normal after a week, when she would have been due. I'm a little worried now about the risk of pyometra, and wondering if I should call back to ask for antibiotics, or should I monitor her temp and get them if she shows any signs of being unwell? She's very bright and active (in fact, acting like more of a puppy than usual), but is being fussy with food which she started about 1 1/2 weeks ago. Is she likely to have to pass what we saw on x-ray? The second vet said she may still have a phantom labour, so I'm wondering if she'll do this and pass what's left, as there was obviously some bone development if we saw it on x-ray. What are the implications for attempting to breed her again? She suggested weekly prog tests, and supplementation if it starts dropping. I had flown her interstate for this mating, but am a little reluctant to spend this money again if I am not likely to get a litter on the ground. I do plan on mating her at her next season, whenever this happens now, but am considering using a more local dog for this. At this point, I am thinking of trying her again, but if no success of her holding onto a litter, I may just put her back in the show ring and buy another bitch down the track. What's the likelihood we will get her to 9 weeks if she's monitored and possibly put on progesterone from 4 weeks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Just me, but I would not enter into breeding a bitch knowing I needed to use drugs to try to get a bitch in whelp or if she needed them to hold on to a litter. The pups from her might inherit the same problem/s and it just sounds too risky for normal development of the pups. We want to breed for bitches the can breed and whelp freely. For some breeds 4 might be a bit old for a first litter, you would have to ask others in your breed. However I would not be totally sure this bitch is not preg, maybe one pup. She might not be as far along as you think. If the xray is showing something but not enough bone development for the age of the litter than that could mean that it is just too soon to take the xray, that your due date is wrong. The day you breed her and the day she actually conceived can be different by maybe 4 days. So from the very last breeding add another 4 days and then count forward 63 days, what is the due date then? If the xray was sooner than 5-6 day prior to this due date then it was likely too soon. Ultra sound will pick up hearts beating and some structures but you can miss them, on a big dog one pup can be tucked up under the ribs or behind something and be totally missed. Both on xray and ultrasound. I have had a 'Vet says they sure she is not preg' bitch go into labor and have a singleton pup. Opps forgot your first question, to join PM Troy and let him know. Edited March 12, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMaddy Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 We saw 3 of what looked like under developed pups on the x-ray. She was mated the 16th March, and ovulated the 14th March as by her prog tests, so that's why I'm pretty confident of dates. She also has no mammary development, which is the first thing the vet commented on, and since I've stopped worrying about how much she eats is looking not at all pregnant. I know 4 may be a little late, and trust me, it wasn't by choice, but I was not in a position to have puppies around until now. So should I still be treating her as in whelp? Cos I'm trying to treat her as normally as possible to try and get her back to acting normally. She's still being difficult to get food into, so I guess I worry if there was a puppy left in there that it could be disadvantaged if she's not eating enough. I still have the free x-ray Tuesday, should I keep the appointment? I'm quite worried about her having multiple x-rays with the radiation, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappynsuzie Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 We saw 3 of what looked like under developed pups on the x-ray. She was mated the 16th March, and ovulated the 14th March as by her prog tests, so that's why I'm pretty confident of dates. She also has no mammary development, which is the first thing the vet commented on, and since I've stopped worrying about how much she eats is looking not at all pregnant. I know 4 may be a little late, and trust me, it wasn't by choice, but I was not in a position to have puppies around until now. So should I still be treating her as in whelp? Cos I'm trying to treat her as normally as possible to try and get her back to acting normally. She's still being difficult to get food into, so I guess I worry if there was a puppy left in there that it could be disadvantaged if she's not eating enough. I still have the free x-ray Tuesday, should I keep the appointment? I'm quite worried about her having multiple x-rays with the radiation, etc. You say she was mated on March 16, do you mean feb 16????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 was mated for the first time in January. I presume this one is teh correct date ?^^^ She was mated the 16th March, and ovulated the 14th March Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Ok, so first question; How do I get my membership here so I can reply to posts as a registered breeder? the requirements are pinned above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Her first due date is Sun 20th and could be as late as 25th. The first xray you are looking at is way too early. I would not take the xray on Tuesday, that might be too early again. I would wait till Friday 18th. Then take it from there. You might just have some puppies it there! I would not fuss too much about here eating. She is a big dog and 3 pups will not take much nutrition from her normal diet to feed. As long her weight is normal and she is not losing weight, just let her decide. You might try adding some sardines if she would tolerate them, as they add good nutrients for the puppies neuro developement and usually thee like them and wil eat them. Get the ones packed in water. Not oil or tomato sauce. Edited March 12, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 They whelp 9 weeks from ovulation, regardless of when they are mated, so if the ovulation date is supposed to read 14th Jan then she is due to whelp on the 18th March. She was x-rayed too early and I really have no idea why people x-ray rather than ultrasound. My vet is a repro specialist and only does ultrasounds. If she was my bitch I would treat her normally and take her back to the second vet for another ultrasound on the 18th just to be sure. Also follow the second vets advice about monitoring the progesterone and also choose another dog from completely different lines next time. Some combinations double up on lethal genes and make the bitch re-absorb. At least be trying another dog and checking her progesterone you will be able to get an idea why she had a problem this time. If it is because she needs extra prog to maintain a pregnancy, then it may not be a good idea to continue with the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMaddy Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 Sorry, I realised after posting I put the wrong month. Yes, she was mated in January. Her prog tests indicated ovulation on the 14th, she was mated once on the 16th and not interested 2 days later. By the first time, I meant her first ever mating. She was ultrasounded at 4 weeks from ovulation exactly where he saw 2, then x-rayed at 1 day under 8 weeks, then ultrasounded right on 8 weeks (the next day). The second vet was confident there were no pups in there, given the ultrasound and her having no mammary development, but I'm sure stranger things have happened. She is being VERY fussy with food, and is lucky to eat more than a few mouthfuls, so she will lose weight if I don't really encourage the food intake. She will only eat meat at times, sometimes a little Eagle pack or advanced tins. She won't touch sardines, dry food, roast chicken, gravy, the list goes on! The male I used has had a VERY nice litter with a bitch of the same lines, my reason for using him. I will be trying another male at this point, but I guess I worry I won't get anything I want to keep, as I really had my heart set on this male, and I am not as convinced I'll find a local male that is anywhere near as good a match for her. Should I get her checked again? Or should I just see what happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Sorry, I realised after posting I put the wrong month. Yes, she was mated in January. Her prog tests indicated ovulation on the 14th, she was mated once on the 16th and not interested 2 days later. By the first time, I meant her first ever mating. She was ultrasounded at 4 weeks from ovulation exactly where he saw 2, then x-rayed at 1 day under 8 weeks, then ultrasounded right on 8 weeks (the next day). The second vet was confident there were no pups in there, given the ultrasound and her having no mammary development, but I'm sure stranger things have happened. She is being VERY fussy with food, and is lucky to eat more than a few mouthfuls, so she will lose weight if I don't really encourage the food intake. She will only eat meat at times, sometimes a little Eagle pack or advanced tins. She won't touch sardines, dry food, roast chicken, gravy, the list goes on! The male I used has had a VERY nice litter with a bitch of the same lines, my reason for using him. I will be trying another male at this point, but I guess I worry I won't get anything I want to keep, as I really had my heart set on this male, and I am not as convinced I'll find a local male that is anywhere near as good a match for her. Should I get her checked again? Or should I just see what happens? I wrote what I thought you should do in my above post. What does your dog normally eat then? Is she always this fussy with her likes and dislikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Ok, so first question; How do I get my membership here so I can reply to posts as a registered breeder?Second is more a bit of an appeal for knowledge and previous experiences. My GSD bitch is 4 years old and was mated for the first time in January. She was ultrasounded at 4 weeks and in whelp, but only a small number. She was then x-rayed Thursday for numbers, and there was a comment that what we saw on x-ray was not developed enough for her gestation, and may not be live puppies. We saw what looked like 3 puppies, but with not a lot of bone formation. They suggested a repeat x-ray Tuesday free of charge. Not being happy with just not knowing, I got a second opinion from another vet who does more repro work. She looked at her and didn't think she looked in whelp, so did an ultrasound. There were no puppies, so she has obviously reabsorbed what was there. She didn't suggest antibiotics or any other treatment, and said as she's still acting in whelp, she should return to normal after a week, when she would have been due. I'm a little worried now about the risk of pyometra, and wondering if I should call back to ask for antibiotics, or should I monitor her temp and get them if she shows any signs of being unwell? She's very bright and active (in fact, acting like more of a puppy than usual), but is being fussy with food which she started about 1 1/2 weeks ago. Is she likely to have to pass what we saw on x-ray? The second vet said she may still have a phantom labour, so I'm wondering if she'll do this and pass what's left, as there was obviously some bone development if we saw it on x-ray. What are the implications for attempting to breed her again? She suggested weekly prog tests, and supplementation if it starts dropping. I had flown her interstate for this mating, but am a little reluctant to spend this money again if I am not likely to get a litter on the ground. I do plan on mating her at her next season, whenever this happens now, but am considering using a more local dog for this. At this point, I am thinking of trying her again, but if no success of her holding onto a litter, I may just put her back in the show ring and buy another bitch down the track. What's the likelihood we will get her to 9 weeks if she's monitored and possibly put on progesterone from 4 weeks? Miss Maddy I would be very worried about the risk of pyometra. Please get a white blood cell count done as soon as possible to rule out this factor. If you would like any more advice on this do not hesitate to personal message me. Best case scenario is that it is not pyo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I agree with what dancinbcs said. Some bitches have trouble maintaining their progesterone levels, so its helpful to test them regularly after mating to see what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMaddy Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 She's not normally fussy at all, eats just about anything I offer her. She tried to be when she was a puppy, but got over it when she realised nothing else was on offer. It's only the last week and a half that she's become fussy with her food, she just acts not at all hungry. I thought it was due to being in whelp, as a lot of GSD breeders have said their bitches get very fussy around 7-8 weeks, some stop eating almost all together. The vet wasn't at all worried about her not eating, and never mentioned pyo, or the possibility of it. She is so bright, alert and active (she's acting like a puppy again ), no temp, the only thing is she's not eating much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMaddy Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Ok so we've been back to the vet and definitely nothing in there. She's now on antibiotics at my request due to the risk of pyometra. She's starting to eat again now, not quite back to normal, but she's actually eating most of what I give her and not losing weight, so I guess she's just eating enough for what she needs now. Hopefully we have more luck next time. If not, well I guess it wasn't meant to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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