Bio Sensor Program

[m-j]

This was mentioned in another thread and I have heard if the pups are over stimulated the effects are detrimental to them, but I have never heard in what way, just wondering if anyone can tell me.

cheers

M-J

[kateshep]

I am unsure about the effects of overstimulating, it would be contradictory to ENS as it is more about mild stimulation though isn't it ?

You may find this interesting.

Edited March 12, 2011 by kateshep

[Erny]

I'm not sure the exact answer to your question, M-J .... but it would relate, I would guess, at the adversity any animal would suffer if subjected to too much stress.

[m-j]

Thanks KS that is an interesting article. I did hear that it was important not to do it any longer than recommended. I know from handling the pups at work how important early handling is though, the litters that have been handled settle in to their new life with us and if neccessary bounceback so much better.

I'm not sure the exact answer to your question, M-J .... but it would relate, I would guess, at the adversity any animal would suffer if subjected to too much stress.

That's basically what I guessed too and I imagine over stressing them at that stage of their life could have lifelong effects.

[JoeK]

Too much theories does the head in for my opinion because most things relates to the nerve the dog was born with, he has the nerve gene for the good, or he doesnt, simple as that. People too often hang the hat on something happening to the baby puppy good or bad that influence his working ability for a reason why he is good or bad at working. Most of this (my opinion) is bull if you looking for a good dog.

You can alter this is true by the bio sensor for better or worse but what happens too much in the litter down the track when training, we find some things perhaps not so good in the trait. Someone says, yes, we can fix this trait in the next litter with a bio stim yes, I say no, we fix in the next litter choosing a better dam or sire who produce the right trait we needing. If you needing the bio sensor and then to worry if too much bio sensor washes the dog out, you are working with a litter too small in the window for error to produce a great dog. Better (my opinion) to look for better dogs in the breeding who have wide window of error and have the recovering trait of the misadventure to the stress. Too many (my opinion) looking for the tool to tweek a not so good breeding, better I am thinking to forget the tweak and put the power in the mind to looking for a the better dog that dont need artificial tweeking to make for the good of working.

Joe

[bedazzledx2]

I do agree with you that dogs are born (and bred) with inherent stable temperaments or not. I don't think anyone here was talking about changing anything by using the bio sensor program...more like enhancing the raw material? Thats my take on it anyway. I have met dogs from litters who have had lots of stim from early, early on and pups from litters who have basically had nothing much...I do think nature takes precedence over nurture but if we can help along the way by good nurture whats the harm?

Too much theories does the head in for my opinion because most things relates to the nerve the dog was born with, he has the nerve gene for the good, or he doesnt, simple as that. People too often hang the hat on something happening to the baby puppy good or bad that influence his working ability for a reason why he is good or bad at working. Most of this (my opinion) is bull if you looking for a good dog.

You can alter this is true by the bio sensor for better or worse but what happens too much in the litter down the track when training, we find some things perhaps not so good in the trait. Someone says, yes, we can fix this trait in the next litter with a bio stim yes, I say no, we fix in the next litter choosing a better dam or sire who produce the right trait we needing. If you needing the bio sensor and then to worry if too much bio sensor washes the dog out, you are working with a litter too small in the window for error to produce a great dog. Better (my opinion) to look for better dogs in the breeding who have wide window of error and have the recovering trait of the misadventure to the stress. Too many (my opinion) looking for the tool to tweek a not so good breeding, better I am thinking to forget the tweak and put the power in the mind to looking for a the better dog that dont need artificial tweeking to make for the good of working.

Joe

[JoeK]

I do agree with you that dogs are born (and bred) with inherent stable temperaments or not. I don't think anyone here was talking about changing anything by using the bio sensor program...more like enhancing the raw material? Thats my take on it anyway. I have met dogs from litters who have had lots of stim from early, early on and pups from litters who have basically had nothing much...I do think nature takes precedence over nurture but if we can help along the way by good nurture whats the harm?

Too much theories does the head in for my opinion because most things relates to the nerve the dog was born with, he has the nerve gene for the good, or he doesnt, simple as that. People too often hang the hat on something happening to the baby puppy good or bad that influence his working ability for a reason why he is good or bad at working. Most of this (my opinion) is bull if you looking for a good dog.

You can alter this is true by the bio sensor for better or worse but what happens too much in the litter down the track when training, we find some things perhaps not so good in the trait. Someone says, yes, we can fix this trait in the next litter with a bio stim yes, I say no, we fix in the next litter choosing a better dam or sire who produce the right trait we needing. If you needing the bio sensor and then to worry if too much bio sensor washes the dog out, you are working with a litter too small in the window for error to produce a great dog. Better (my opinion) to look for better dogs in the breeding who have wide window of error and have the recovering trait of the misadventure to the stress. Too many (my opinion) looking for the tool to tweek a not so good breeding, better I am thinking to forget the tweak and put the power in the mind to looking for a the better dog that dont need artificial tweeking to make for the good of working.

Joe

Yes, there probably is no harm in the bio sensor and perhaps it has some good, no worries, but what happens like the add for the Malinios pups, someone say we don't know what happens in the pups from born to 8 weeks so we should all panic and assume the pups will be no good at the working? In my experiences, I have seen more better dogs when grown up and trained properly begin from nothing special treatment and some like Pierre Walhstrom is good example wins a world Schutzhund championship with a rescue Shepherd dog he got from a pet home at 18 months old. Many people don't want this dog, is too old, no training, no socialise, no nothing is bad dog out of control on drive. Pierre he have a look to the dog as says YES, this dog has very good traits and the good gene, I take him to my home, he train him and win a world title. So, the point I make, this dog has talented trait by the genes and is what counts is the genetic make up above all else. I have seen the dog raised many time from a list and the handler stick to this list like the bible, at 6pm you play tuggy for 12 minutes, at 6am you feed the special food with a special powder you do this, you do that, yes, and the dog come onto the field as a superdog, and is no good, is just average dog after all this lists followed to produce the excellence didint happen? So, what I learn is above all else the dog if born with the good genes for working, he will be a good worker regardless.

Joe

[m-j]

So, what I learn is above all else the dog if born with the good genes for working, he will be a good worker regardless.

I do agree with what you are saying but not all dogs that are bred for for a purpose are bred for their nerve. One example is Greyhounds, all they really need to have is good prey drive and be fast. I do know that having weak nerves with no nurturing can really put them at a huge disadvantage during their training. At least if they have had some nurturing/experiences early in their life, that and their drive can pull them through what can be a difficult and is a very different experience from how they are generally raised.

Edited March 14, 2011 by m-j

[JoeK]

So, what I learn is above all else the dog if born with the good genes for working, he will be a good worker regardless.

I do agree with what you are saying but not all dogs that are bred for for a purpose are bred for their nerve. One example is Greyhounds, all they really need to have is good prey drive and be fast. I do know that having weak nerves with no nurturing can really put them at a huge disadvantage during their training. At least if they have had some nurturing/experiences early in their life, that and their drive can pull them through what can be a difficult and is a very different experience from how they are generally raised.

Yes, that is a very fine example with the Greyhound and I am imagine the breeder is good, he know hes short on nerve for the speed and drive and accomodate with the early raising is good for the racing dog and very much agree with this practicing. The working dog is much different for requirment in the nerve for the conditions he needs to work.

Joe

[Lablover]

MJ, have you seen many successful racing greyhounds with poor nerve?

Been years (and years! ha) since I have been around racing greyhounds. Never really saw a nervous one.

[m-j]

LL

MJ, have you seen many successful racing greyhounds with poor nerve?

Been years (and years! ha) since I have been around racing greyhounds. Never really saw a nervous one.

The kennel I work at is a rearing / spelling kennel

I actually don't have much to do with the dogs that are spelling at our kennels but they are reserved until they know you. I believe moreso than other dogs seem to be (generally) in a strange place with nothing familiar around them.

Maybe they are just becoming more highly strung

[Lablover]

Maybe they are just becoming more highly strung ;)

Highly strung...um..mode of inheritance - dominant????

Hey, one thing is for sure...all the ENS in the world will not help a slow greyhound go faster.

Had so many fun debates with dog owners wanting to have top pick of a litter....I reckon choose the breeding, separate sexes, if one is preferred, pick the pup who last emptied. Same diff...all the picking in the world is not going to make a second rate litter, as good as the "prime" breeding.

Mind you, mother nature can be unkind.

Edited: Cannot even spell tonight.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Lablover

[Vickie]

Had so many fun debates with dog owners wanting to have top pick of a litter....I reckon choose the breeding, separate sexes, if one is preferred, pick the pup who last emptied. Same diff...all the picking in the world is not going to make a second rate litter, as good as the "prime" breeding.

so true LL

when asked which pups they are keeping, sheepdog people often respond "whichever ones are left"

[m-j]

Hey, one thing is for sure...all the ENS in the world will not help a slow greyhound go faster.

This is true, but recently we sent off some dogs that hadn't had early handling and they were very nervy dogs. The first time they were on the track they didn't stretch out, the breaker said these dogs have been raised in a matchbox (which they hadn't), boss asked me if I had noticed that their action was bad, I hadn't so I said I wouldn't mind betting they were worried and being cautious give them another chance, they did, dogs stretched out as they were a bit more confident and one is actually very good.

Mind you, mother nature can be unkind.

Yes there was a mating done several years ago which produced 5 top winning dogs and sires. Apparently the mating was repeated 6 times which produced nothing out of the ordinary.

[The Spotted Devil]

Had so many fun debates with dog owners wanting to have top pick of a litter....I reckon choose the breeding, separate sexes, if one is preferred, pick the pup who last emptied. Same diff...all the picking in the world is not going to make a second rate litter, as good as the "prime" breeding.

so true LL

when asked which pups they are keeping, sheepdog people often respond "whichever ones are left"

LL's response when I asked how to pick my ESS pup? "As long as it doesn't have 2 heads or 5 legs you'll be fine"

[Greytmate]

This was mentioned in another thread and I have heard if the pups are over stimulated the effects are detrimental to them, but I have never heard in what way, just wondering if anyone can tell me.

cheers

M-J

Over stimulation could refer to the level of stimulation or the amount of time spent stimulating. If it's the latter, then depriving pups of sleep will have a detrimental effect. I think I read a study about it a long time ago. It is important for pups to get enough sleep at the right time for good neourological development. Probably just like babies do.

Aside from that I agree with Joe.

Having known litters of dogs that were raised almost identically, the really top racing dogs are the ones that are born with good nerve (as well as being fast). A highly strung dog will 'run its race in the kennel' and won't have the edge that a calm dog has. A highly strung dog is probably also more likely to experience a negative socialisation situation that will reinforce fearful or defensive behaviour, because it is naturally more fearful of novelty.

Good nerve, no fear, no defensiveness, curiosity for novelty (as pups), calmness and a belief in their right to win are what makes a really good race dog.

Studies have been done that show that certain raising and socialisation methods will result in better adult dogs. The figures show this. But, I do not know whether breeding was taken into acount with these studies.

[m-j]

Studies have been done that show that certain raising and socialisation methods will result in better adult dogs. The figures show this. But, I do not know whether breeding was taken into acount with these studies.

Can you tell where I can access these studies, please?

[Greytmate]

Studies have been done that show that certain raising and socialisation methods will result in better adult dogs. The figures show this. But, I do not know whether breeding was taken into acount with these studies.

Can you tell where I can access these studies, please?

Not quite. In my last job I was mentored by a well-qualified veterinary behaviourist, who just summarised a lot of learning she had done as relevant to the issue I was dealing with.

I found it all logical and thought about it in context with what is fairly widely known about the disadvantages of human institutionalisation or of withholding care from human babies. It did raise the question of breeding with me, and by that I don't mean just separate breeds (our artificially constructed definition of them), I mean identifiable genetic lines found within breeds. Do we artificially select dogs that cope well with 'institutionalisation' or 'neglect', thus altering their evolution? To what extent?

Here on DOL we are pretty cluey about what we think that good socialisation (or neutralisation) and puppy raising is, and my guess is that these studies were testing out the types of ideas that are generally accepted here on DOL. Because it is the common assumptions and theories that are most likely to raise interesting questions with the researchers.

If you can get access to scientific journals, you could do a search and try to find some of that work. Sorry I can't point you in a better direction than that.

[corvus]

There was a paper that came out last year that showed that exposing young puppies to videos made them less fearful of novelty later on. Not sure if that is the kind of thing Greytmate is talking about. Scott and Fuller did the most comprehensive work on puppy development back in the 60s. It is still referenced heavily in research today. I am yet to get my hands on a copy. http://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Social-Beha...t/dp/0226743381

[m-j]

If you can get access to scientific journals, you could do a search and try to find some of that work. Sorry I can't point you in a better direction than that.

Thanks, I've had a quick look but couldn't find what I was looking for. I was hoping you were talking about studies pertaining to the raising of racing Greyhounds Some of the popular beliefs held by others concerning the raising of the Greys don't all sit well with me, due to my experiences with the many pups we have raised to adults and was looking for scientific evidence to hopefully support my beliefs.

Scott and Fuller did the most comprehensive work on puppy development back in the 60s. It is still referenced heavily in research today.

Thanks Corvus I do have Genetics and the Social Behaviour of the Dog but due to time limitations haven't finished reading it and it has been a very long time between "reads" so I don't really remember much from it. I bought it and several other books a couple of years ago all of which have really only been glanced through *sigh*, one day :D.

Edited March 28, 2011 by m-j