What Makes A Dog Attack People Randomly?

[mita]

There's evidence about how dogs come to be predisposed towards seriously biting/attacking people...or not. Which applies irrespective of breed or mix. It requires understanding, for starters, that the dog's learning was hard-wired a long time past & during a critical developmental period as a puppy.

Only response I've heard in the media, which has spoken to that, came from the Rotti Club of Victoria. Following a case where a rotti was involved in an attack. Excellent information given.

And, perhaps not coincidentally, the best talk I've heard on radio re how to raise puppies, with this in mind, came from a registered rotti breeder in Victoria. She was helping the interviewer recover from the fact that her rotti does a brlliant job with pet therapy (including children & elderly people).

Edited March 9, 2011 by mita

[LizT]

I was kind of offended when I read a lot of the material in this thread. I own a large, high prey drive, entire male doberman. I hate the thought that people automatically assume he's more likely to be dangerous than other breeds, and cop it all the time when people meet him for the first time. I did not expect to get that here though.

As for the, you should train a dog to find biting (or mouthing humans) unpleasant, that sounds ridiculous to me. Typically I really respect what a lot of the behaviouralists have to say on these threads and try to apply what I can. But I would like to know what information they have to support the crazy notion that a mouthy dog (who doesn't have unpleasant associations towards having humans in their mouths) is a dog less likely to bite under the wrong circumstances.

What about all of the retrievers who are by nature mouthy? Or is that different and ok..

My dog has a huge mouth, huge teeth and can destroy huge bones and kong toys very quickly. He also often mouths me and my partner and a kitten. None of us have a single mark on us, and I have not had to correct him for biting too hard since he was about 10 weeks old. I play tug of war with this dog, get him riled up until his pupils take up his whole eye and yet I can happily and without any fear stick my hand in his mouth at any time.

It's called bite inhibition, and it's something dogs understand.

When a dog decides to bite a human, decides to inflict damage to another creature with their mouth, in my mind at least this is a dog that is at a point where previous unpleasant experiences won't stop it from doing so. This is a desperate animal.

Why do dogs 'randomly' attack? These are dogs that don't have another way to communicate, who feel that their other warnings were ignored, and who probably didn't know how to express discomfort to a different species in the first place from lack of a relationship with humans. Frustrated, mentally unstable, too much energy and no known outlets. Bad habits, fears, all the rest of it. But you can know your dog, and your dog can know you. This is why I buy puppies from good breeders so you don't have worry as much about that sort of thing.

But please don't spread anymore propagnada. Statistically certain factors may make a dog more likely to be involved in an attack, but think about the other factors involved - who wants those breeds normally and who doesn't desex their dog.

Don't feel offended Jaqui835. I'm sure that even though it might be subliminal you have also taught your dog that there is a line to any type of play mouthing. I was not happy with my dog randomly grabbing peoples wrists, as I'm sure many were not happy with him grabbing their wrists either. Better to teach him not to do it than to try to teach him that's it's okay with this person but not with the next person and so on.

Incidently my GSD mouths my Cavaliers and they mouth each other. Somehow all they do to him is give "kisses".

Gundogs are taught to be soft mouthed with objects that they hold, up to and including dead game. They don't learn this my slobbering on peoples hands as young dogs.

Edited March 9, 2011 by LizT

[LizT]

I used to teach statistics (not by choice). People get 'random' wrong, routinely. Show them true random distribution and they find a pattern. If you want to get people to think something is random, show them a randomized pattern. I know. I know. Everyone hates statistics and this is far too abstract to understand without an hour of boring lectures that you'll fall asleep in if you aren't going to be tested on. But . . . please tolerate us science nuts . . . that beer surprised me . . . the label says 8.1% . . .maybe my brain is misfiring. American beer labels don't present the 'standard drinks' thingy . . . I tend to assume the cheap ones are weak . . . wrong this time . . .

Bottom line . . . I agree with people who say patterns of attack are unlikely to be truly random. Ok, if the dog's brain is mis-firing cause it is sick, it may attack in a pattern that has nothing to do with the setting, but it's not random . . . the patterns come from the dog's sickness, not the environment.

I'll shut up . .. I don't think I'm adding anything other than jargon . . . but if anyone wants to listen there's a mega-load of evidence on humans as pattern-seeking animals who almost always fail in recognizing patterns that are truly random, and routinely classify random events as pattern. . . . and if you're looking the wrong direction for the cause you won't find the pattern. And if you ever get press ganged into teaching statistics . . .Lord help you . . . you may find this diatribe interesting.

Sandgrubber are you pissed????(Australian definition not U.S.)

Or..it could be me trying to understand what you'd typed after having taken a dose of Oxycodone and Paracetamol/codine as I had a riding accident last Sunday and hurt my back.

Edited March 9, 2011 by LizT

[smooch]

Many years ago I was attacked by a white shepherd male dog. The owner of the property was a saddler working from his back yard, I was delivering goods for my Ex's business. I entered the open gates to go to the workshop, dog is on the veranda of the house, dog jumps off the veranda with tail wagging running towards me (no warning bark nothing), when it got within approx. meter from me it lept and if I hadn't put my arm up it would have got me in the face, I ended up with 10 stitches in my arm. I started screaming when the dog latched onto my arm and the owner came out. The owner stated the dog had never ever looked aggressive towards anyone before and that I must have done something for the dog to attack. So why did this dog attack me I have no idea.

[Nekhbet]

I was kind of offended when I read a lot of the material in this thread. I own a large, high prey drive, entire male doberman. I hate the thought that people automatically assume he's more likely to be dangerous than other breeds, and cop it all the time when people meet him for the first time. I did not expect to get that here though.

As for the, you should train a dog to find biting (or mouthing humans) unpleasant, that sounds ridiculous to me. Typically I really respect what a lot of the behaviouralists have to say on these threads and try to apply what I can. But I would like to know what information they have to support the crazy notion that a mouthy dog (who doesn't have unpleasant associations towards having humans in their mouths) is a dog less likely to bite under the wrong circumstances.

What about all of the retrievers who are by nature mouthy? Or is that different and ok..

My dog has a huge mouth, huge teeth and can destroy huge bones and kong toys very quickly. He also often mouths me and my partner and a kitten. None of us have a single mark on us, and I have not had to correct him for biting too hard since he was about 10 weeks old. I play tug of war with this dog, get him riled up until his pupils take up his whole eye and yet I can happily and without any fear stick my hand in his mouth at any time.

It's called bite inhibition, and it's something dogs understand.

When a dog decides to bite a human, decides to inflict damage to another creature with their mouth, in my mind at least this is a dog that is at a point where previous unpleasant experiences won't stop it from doing so. This is a desperate animal.

Why do dogs 'randomly' attack? These are dogs that don't have another way to communicate, who feel that their other warnings were ignored, and who probably didn't know how to express discomfort to a different species in the first place from lack of a relationship with humans. Frustrated, mentally unstable, too much energy and no known outlets. Bad habits, fears, all the rest of it. But you can know your dog, and your dog can know you. This is why I buy puppies from good breeders so you don't have worry as much about that sort of thing.

But please don't spread anymore propagnada. Statistically certain factors may make a dog more likely to be involved in an attack, but think about the other factors involved - who wants those breeds normally and who doesn't desex their dog.

Where did anyone mention your dog was dangerous?

I personally dont agree with any dog putting part of a person in their mouth. I have seen it go wrong too many times. If you want to do it, that is your perogative I just personally will not condone it as the way to go with all pups. I too own working breed dogs, we play tug but they will never go for my hands because I worked on bite targeting. I can also put my hands in their mouths, down their throats at times and they will sit there happily with slack jaws. Did I say you had to be mean or cruel? No. Firm but fair - you hurt me, I show you it's an unwanted and unpleasant thing to do. I dont like walking around with arms covered in scratches and bruises. Trust me when a dog bites another too hard you can see it turn around and give it the telling off of a lifetime, even pups do.

Saying that the times my dogs have been in extreme pain they have not lashed out at me or mouthed me. I get the vocalisation and the normal range of behaviours but I dont worry about a lash out, and neither will the veterinarian/chiro - when you have 50+ kg of muscled male at the end of the leash it's a comfort for all. The working Mal pups I had here I redirected onto toys if they started mouthing me as I didnt want to kill the workability, but I still didnt allow teeth on me (because they're bloody sharp and they bloody hurt a lot!) They were taught toys and sleeves were a heck of a lot better then putting teeth to human skin. I know some people that have encouraged mouthing in working dogs, and to walk around with your arms covered in bruises and cuts to me is rediculous.

For the bolded bit ... so your dog has never ever ever mouthed that little bit too hard, or taken a bite of your hand instead of the toy in over excitement?

[gwenneth1]

A dog of my firends that we knew tried to attack my son. They were playing ball, then we all sat down afterwards. My son sat on a step the dog came and laid next to him and he proceeded to pat the dog, the dog appeared relaxed , I glanced over at the dog for some reason and saw a flash of 'hardening' of the eyes in the dog, I said to my son "Just get up and slowly walk away from him, because he just got a funny look". Son (argued the point) "No he didn't , your imagining things.." . I said 'GET UP NOW and MOVE away slowly NOW". (I can't remember the dog's behaviour at that point because I was so focused on trying to get my son to move). Just as my son withdraw his hand , the dog leapt at his face snapping, it was lucky for him the owner was standing next to the step and grabbed the dogs collar. The owner was shocked and said she knew the dog could be 'funny' with strange men, but he was okay with with men he was familiar with. Prior to the change in the eyes, the dog didn't growl at all, no body stiffening or stillness it was literally a flash of hardness in the eyes.

I wasnt observing all the time prior, but the dog was calm and relaxed when laying down, maybe my son stroked him in a way the dog considered a dominant gesture or he was being defensive of his human owner standing close by, who knows. This dog ended up getting pts about three months later as he also did the same thing to her daughter's boyfriend and then her own son, leaping at the face snapping.When the dog leaped up at her son, he had come home from work, leant over the fence and patted him where the dog had his front paws on the fence,all wagging tails, then he leant over again to pat him again prior to opening the gate and according to my friend "he (dog) just went ballistic" at my son. That was the final straw and she had the dog pts. ( I enver thought to ask if she had the dog checked for any health issues though).

I'm presuming a man at some point has traumatised this dog, because he was wonderful with all women, so it was a bit of a sad ending for the dog and I think only a good behaviourialist could have helped,though I did not blame my friend for choosing the pts option.

[mita]

I should have guessed it. I said I was impressed with the accuracy of the information about dogs & tendency to be aggressive or not....that came from the Rotti Club of Victoria. And also how a Victorian registered Rotti breeder, described on radio how to raise puppies well, with that knowledge in mind.

Well, seems the Rotti Club of Victoria has set it all out clearly on their website. IMO, it's a very responsible thing to do & I dips my lid to them :

http://www.rottweilerclubofvictoria.com/site/index.php?id=34

I should add that puppy buyers have a vested interest in finding out how the breeder they're buying from raises his/her puppies. This is where the hard-wiring is first laid down. Whatever the breed or mix. And they need to know how to build on that, when they take the puppy home.

Edited March 9, 2011 by mita

[Cosmolo]

Dogs can learn bite inhibition without putting their mouth on people. Just because a dog does or does not have good bite inhibition doesn't mean they are more or less likely to attack- it does suggest that the dog with inhibition has the ABILITY to do less damage than one without. But a dog with good bite inhibition can still bite something hard- thats the whole point, they can adjust depending on what they are doing, how they are feeling at the time.

Allowing pups to mouth is fraught with difficulty. Who decides what is too hard? How do you make it consistent between people who are different or different tolerances depending on where the dog mouths you? It IS safer IMO to teach no teeth on people ever and to then provide appropriate outlets through tug of war etc.

Why do dogs attack?

Poor Socialisation

Poor management

Poor or no training

Bad Experience

Genetic predisposition

Medical Issues

Or a combination of all of the above.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Cosmolo

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think some owners punish their dogs for growling at other dogs or children, and those dogs learn not to give a warning growl when they are uncomfortable about a situation. So they will just go from uncomfortable to chomp. I know some owners are aware that their dogs do this so they remind you to keep clear of their dog. Sometimes the dog lets me know by doing other signs of discomfort ie trying to get away of its own accord. If the dog is going behind the owner instead of towards me and my dog, I assume it's not friendly or interested in a doggy greeting or a pat.

I don't know if there was anything "random" (do you mean unpredictable) about the malamute attack. My dog finds Malamutes play way too rough. They've got super thick coats and if they only play with other malamutes, they don't learn to adjust for human skin or dogs with less coat. However I saw the injuries described in this case and I think it would have hurt even another malamute ie it was way worse than rough play.

And I would agree with the lack of socialisation and training or management. There is a dog aggressive dog that is no longer welcome at our local dog oval, it started as a gorgeous playful Golden Retriever puppy and got ignored on the oval by the owner, no management of it's behaviour at all. She was offered top level training, and did not take it up. And then her dog starts attacking other dogs over food or playmates or toys and does not read the "I submit you can have it signs", just goes beserk. I watched her come in and drag her dog off another dog, so the fight looked over, and then instead of putting her dog on lead, she lets it go - and the mauling started again... Can't even call it a fight because the other dog was not defending itself.

[mita]

The thing that strikes me about that well-evidenced info on the Rotti Club of Vic website, is that it could be applied to any size or breed of dog.

They comment that to not raise & manage a big strong dog like a Rotti well, is looking for trouble.

But all sizes of dogs are capable of doing varying damage. Small dogs with sharp teeth can cause damage to the thinner skins of babies' & young children's faces and eyes. And are on a level with them to do so. Those age groups, by the way, are statistically most vulnerable to dog bites.

So the same good advice & info on that Rottie page applies to all size dogs. Yet smaller dogs are amongst the biggest sellers from pet stores and other secondary sources. Where a buyer has no knowledge if the puppy's NOT been well 'hardwired' for human socialisation Yet that base is critical.

A bit more knowledge & a bit more research & a bit more effort, will lead to less shocks from dogs suddenly & seriously biting/attacking. Whatever the size or breed or mix.

[Jed]

I have always thought that instead of jumping up and down about the breed, it would make a lot more sense if the papers gave the opinion of a very good dog behaviourist for the reasons for the attack. That would help people understand how to manage their dogs to prevent attacks.

A good idea in principle Jed but I dread the thought of a Media provided "Expert".

It's a bit of a worry - especially in light of the "experts" they usually have .... but one could only hope that they would get someone who actually DID know!

It would really help, I think

[Nekhbet]

But all sizes of dogs are capable of doing varying damage. Small dogs with sharp teeth can cause damage to the thinner skins of babies' & young children's faces and eyes.

After having a 2kg geriatric pomeranian swinging off my boob, the biting my wrist almost to the bone I can vouch for the fact littlies can cause a hell of a lot of pain

[juice]

Ot, but how do you stop a mouthy dog, i have one, she is 3 and gets mouthy when excited, and yes has grabbed my hand instead of the tug once, her eye set doesn't help though.

PM is fine, just need to know, as atm i just stop playing and walk away.

Edited March 9, 2011 by juice

[Jed]

But all sizes of dogs are capable of doing varying damage. Small dogs with sharp teeth can cause damage to the thinner skins of babies' & young children's faces and eyes.

After having a 2kg geriatric pomeranian swinging off my boob, the biting my wrist almost to the bone I can vouch for the fact littlies can cause a hell of a lot of pain

A pomeranian killed a baby -----

[aussielover]

Many "family pets" that attack people "randomly" are actually just dog that live in the family's backyard at best and are often chained up in the yard. They have little to no interaction with the family at all. The media sensationalises the story as usual, it is more exciting and shocking to think a beloved family pet could so easily turn on you.

[jacqui835]

I was kind of offended when I read a lot of the material in this thread. I own a large, high prey drive, entire male doberman. I hate the thought that people automatically assume he's more likely to be dangerous than other breeds, and cop it all the time when people meet him for the first time. I did not expect to get that here though.

As for the, you should train a dog to find biting (or mouthing humans) unpleasant, that sounds ridiculous to me. Typically I really respect what a lot of the behaviouralists have to say on these threads and try to apply what I can. But I would like to know what information they have to support the crazy notion that a mouthy dog (who doesn't have unpleasant associations towards having humans in their mouths) is a dog less likely to bite under the wrong circumstances.

What about all of the retrievers who are by nature mouthy? Or is that different and ok..

My dog has a huge mouth, huge teeth and can destroy huge bones and kong toys very quickly. He also often mouths me and my partner and a kitten. None of us have a single mark on us, and I have not had to correct him for biting too hard since he was about 10 weeks old. I play tug of war with this dog, get him riled up until his pupils take up his whole eye and yet I can happily and without any fear stick my hand in his mouth at any time.

It's called bite inhibition, and it's something dogs understand.

When a dog decides to bite a human, decides to inflict damage to another creature with their mouth, in my mind at least this is a dog that is at a point where previous unpleasant experiences won't stop it from doing so. This is a desperate animal.

Why do dogs 'randomly' attack? These are dogs that don't have another way to communicate, who feel that their other warnings were ignored, and who probably didn't know how to express discomfort to a different species in the first place from lack of a relationship with humans. Frustrated, mentally unstable, too much energy and no known outlets. Bad habits, fears, all the rest of it. But you can know your dog, and your dog can know you. This is why I buy puppies from good breeders so you don't have worry as much about that sort of thing.

But please don't spread anymore propagnada. Statistically certain factors may make a dog more likely to be involved in an attack, but think about the other factors involved - who wants those breeds normally and who doesn't desex their dog.

Where did anyone mention your dog was dangerous?

I personally dont agree with any dog putting part of a person in their mouth. I have seen it go wrong too many times. If you want to do it, that is your perogative I just personally will not condone it as the way to go with all pups. I too own working breed dogs, we play tug but they will never go for my hands because I worked on bite targeting. I can also put my hands in their mouths, down their throats at times and they will sit there happily with slack jaws. Did I say you had to be mean or cruel? No. Firm but fair - you hurt me, I show you it's an unwanted and unpleasant thing to do. I dont like walking around with arms covered in scratches and bruises. Trust me when a dog bites another too hard you can see it turn around and give it the telling off of a lifetime, even pups do.

Saying that the times my dogs have been in extreme pain they have not lashed out at me or mouthed me. I get the vocalisation and the normal range of behaviours but I dont worry about a lash out, and neither will the veterinarian/chiro - when you have 50+ kg of muscled male at the end of the leash it's a comfort for all. The working Mal pups I had here I redirected onto toys if they started mouthing me as I didnt want to kill the workability, but I still didnt allow teeth on me (because they're bloody sharp and they bloody hurt a lot!) They were taught toys and sleeves were a heck of a lot better then putting teeth to human skin. I know some people that have encouraged mouthing in working dogs, and to walk around with your arms covered in bruises and cuts to me is rediculous.

For the bolded bit ... so your dog has never ever ever mouthed that little bit too hard, or taken a bite of your hand instead of the toy in over excitement?

In this thread, people listed several factors - breed, gender, whether entire or not etc as specifics typically associated with dogs involved in attacks. Misuse of statistics and what not.

My dog doesn't mouth me or anyone excessively, but I suppose it's a personal thing for how much you're willing to tolerate. I figure, he has no hands, if he wants to interact with something, he only has his mouth. I was thinking about it, and it's really not something he does often, but I actually posted a photo here a while ago of him mouthing me

And well I just have no problem with this sort of thing...

My dog has never ever hurt me, any other human or animal with his teeth. That's not true to be fair, he did when he was 8-9 weeks old, we had plenty of scratches then but we were extremely firm with his training and showed him it was ineffective (by not drawing back or doing anything else exciting) and worse, resulted in him being ignored. He plays with a kitten and mouths him too, the kitten likes it lol.

He can be very excited, pupils fully dilated, leaping off the ground as we swing the toy around, in the middle of a 2+ min game of tug of war, if I say drop, he drops it instantly and sits. This is what we train for, I would not and have never tolerated anything else.

I check his teeth thoroughly every day, I stuff worming tablets down his throat and remove bits of fluff from his toys from half way down his throat, I pounce on him when he's not looking and hug him. He is unphased, he asks questions first then bites.

I just think you can know your dog. Most of these attacks labeled as random annoy us so much because the owners are always like, oh they've done that before but I thought they'd be fine now etc. Or they just don't spend enough time with their dogs and have no idea what's going on so everything the dog does is pretty random to them. And then there's disease and mental illness. To be honest, I don't think there's a whole lot more to it. If I see a dog at the park or on the street (and I take my dog everywhere with me, so he's out a lot), I quickly check the owner. If they have the dog under control, walking at their side, they don't look phased etc and they're not freaking out at the sight of my dog, well I keep my eye on the other dog but I find you can almost always predict what the dog will be like from the owner.

[Jeff Jones]

I have always thought that instead of jumping up and down about the breed, it would make a lot more sense if the papers gave the opinion of a very good dog behaviourist for the reasons for the attack. That would help people understand how to manage their dogs to prevent attacks.

A good idea in principle Jed but I dread the thought of a Media provided "Expert".

It's a bit of a worry - especially in light of the "experts" they usually have .... but one could only hope that they would get someone who actually DID know!

It would really help, I think

A friend of mine and an excellent dog trainer was booked in to appear on a news segment yesterday morning to discuss dog attacks and bsl. They ended up canceling the segment at the last minute. This person is an expert on dog behaviour and training with over 10 years experience in training working dogs. I hope they do end up completing the segment.

[JoeK]

What I see in Australia is often very poor working dogs with bad nerves that are sometimes accidents to happening. Some people tell me Joe, this is a good dog, but my thinking is what you breed is a fear biter, the dog has no nerve is scared and defensive animal, should be better to put him to sleep before he hurts someone child or something. A good Shepherd dog is not scared, hes tough and doesnot give a toss about childs they dont scare him. Hes confident dog and only when pressure against his life is put to him should he react and bite.

They say Joe, I breed protection dogs, look at him he sees a man walk past and goes off, teeth and all wanting to kill him. protection dog pffff, fear biter, the man nothing he has done to the dog and the dog wants to kill him, this dog isnt not a good dog with shot nerves and no use to anybody. The crossbeed dog, well you can all have a guess how well he is turning out like rolling the dice if he shall bite people, who nose?

Yes you can take the puppy dog to the socialise is good, but a dog has nerve or it has not, does not matter, most is in the genes of the dog, is rection to bite people from fear or is not. In much of the working dogs is see bred, that are snappy because the working dog is a protection breed and herding dog, they think that snappy is good and means you can make a good police dog, pffff, they dreaming, the dog is a coward, put on the muzzel and take the teeth away, and pressure the dog he will run off the field with no teeth working. A good working dog dont bite for no reason, they are calm and don't care and give warning if thay dont like what you do groel with tail up, plenty of time.

People who breeding dogs must look at the nerve, some have no idea, the hard nerve produces the good pet dogs, never mind the pretty as a picture to win a show, without the nerve in all dogs is where biting people comes from, just my opinion and thanks for listning

Joe

Edited March 10, 2011 by JoeK

[Rottigirl]

Puppy school trainers should put more emphasis on teaching owners how to read dog behaviour. It is not acceptable to not read dog warning signs or to surpress natural behaviours.

My neighbour's dog had half his face bitten off because of a socially maladjusted idiot that failed to read his dog's behaviour and effectively control it. Dog ownership is about social responsibility. It would be great if only the socially responsible humans could be given the gift of dog ownership, I think then we would see a real change in bite stats.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Rottigirl

[Jed]

Many "family pets" that attack people "randomly" are actually just dog that live in the family's backyard at best and are often chained up in the yard. They have little to no interaction with the family at all. The media sensationalises the story as usual, it is more exciting and shocking to think a beloved family pet could so easily turn on you.

That's an incredibly sweeping statement, and not in accord with published research. Dogs that live as above account for SOME attacks, but only a percentage. there are other causes too.