What Makes A Dog Attack People Randomly?

[LizT]

What I see in Australia is often very poor working dogs with bad nerves that are sometimes accidents to happening. Some people tell me Joe, this is a good dog, but my thinking is what you breed is a fear biter, the dog has no nerve is scared and defensive animal, should be better to put him to sleep before he hurts someone child or something. A good Shepherd dog is not scared, hes tough and doesnot give a toss about childs they dont scare him. Hes confident dog and only when pressure against his life is put to him should he react and bite.

They say Joe, I breed protection dogs, look at him he sees a man walk past and goes off, teeth and all wanting to kill him. protection dog poof, fear biter, the man nothing he has done to the dog and the dog wants to kill him, this dog isnt not a good dog with shot nerves and no use to anybody. The crossbeed dog, well you can all have a guess how well he is turning out like rolling the dice if he shall bite people, who nose?

Yes you can take the puppy dog to the socialise is good, but a dog has nerve or it has not, does not matter, most is in the genes of the dog, is rection to bite people from fear or is not. In much of the working dogs is see bred, that are snappy because the working dog is a protection breed and herding dog, they think that snappy is good and means you can make a good police dog, poof, they dreaming, the dog is a coward, put on the muzzel and take the teeth away, and pressure the dog he will run off the field with no teeth working. A good working dog dont bite for no reason, they are calm and don't care and give warning if thay dont like what you do groel with tail up, plenty of time.

People who breeding dogs must look at the nerve, some have no idea, the hard nerve produces the good pet dogs, never mind the pretty as a picture to win a show, without the nerve in all dogs is where biting people comes from, just my opinion and thanks for listning

Joe

Thanks Joe, I know what you mean. A person should feel safe around someones elses well trained guard dog. They should feel "protected" too until such time that they are a genuine threat and the dog should respond in a controlled way, as per it's correct training.

[LizT]

I have always thought that instead of jumping up and down about the breed, it would make a lot more sense if the papers gave the opinion of a very good dog behaviourist for the reasons for the attack. That would help people understand how to manage their dogs to prevent attacks.

A good idea in principle Jed but I dread the thought of a Media provided "Expert".

It's a bit of a worry - especially in light of the "experts" they usually have .... but one could only hope that they would get someone who actually DID know!

It would really help, I think

A friend of mine and an excellent dog trainer was booked in to appear on a news segment yesterday morning to discuss dog attacks and bsl. They ended up canceling the segment at the last minute. This person is an expert on dog behaviour and training with over 10 years experience in training working dogs. I hope they do end up completing the segment.

I hope they do too. Too often important things get put on the back burner because of 'time'.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My neighbour's dog had half his face bitten off by a socially maladjusted idiot who failed to read his dog's behaviour and effectively control it.

That's one scary idiot.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Sometimes if we don't laugh, we'd have to cry.

[JoeK]

Many "family pets" that attack people "randomly" are actually just dog that live in the family's backyard at best and are often chained up in the yard. They have little to no interaction with the family at all. The media sensationalises the story as usual, it is more exciting and shocking to think a beloved family pet could so easily turn on you.

That's an incredibly sweeping statement, and not in accord with published research. Dogs that live as above account for SOME attacks, but only a percentage. there are other causes too.

My thinking too many people reading old stories how fighting dogs were raised many year ago, isolate the dog on a chain and beat him with a stick to work in violence, but we need to think in real life, not much would this happen today in a pet back yard. This type of dog and training I am thinking would not account for biting people in a statistic records. The sweeping of the statement I agree would not be founded.

Joe

[LizT]

My neighbour's dog had half his face bitten off by a socially maladjusted idiot who failed to read his dog's behaviour and effectively control it.

That's one scary idiot. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Sometimes if we don't laugh, we'd have to cry.

I had to do a second take too Mrs.R.B! I thought her neighbour might have encountered Mr. H. Lector.

(Yes, sometimes we need things to lighten it up!)

[JoeK]

What I see in Australia is often very poor working dogs with bad nerves that are sometimes accidents to happening. Some people tell me Joe, this is a good dog, but my thinking is what you breed is a fear biter, the dog has no nerve is scared and defensive animal, should be better to put him to sleep before he hurts someone child or something. A good Shepherd dog is not scared, hes tough and doesnot give a toss about childs they dont scare him. Hes confident dog and only when pressure against his life is put to him should he react and bite.

They say Joe, I breed protection dogs, look at him he sees a man walk past and goes off, teeth and all wanting to kill him. protection dog poof, fear biter, the man nothing he has done to the dog and the dog wants to kill him, this dog isnt not a good dog with shot nerves and no use to anybody. The crossbeed dog, well you can all have a guess how well he is turning out like rolling the dice if he shall bite people, who nose?

Yes you can take the puppy dog to the socialise is good, but a dog has nerve or it has not, does not matter, most is in the genes of the dog, is rection to bite people from fear or is not. In much of the working dogs is see bred, that are snappy because the working dog is a protection breed and herding dog, they think that snappy is good and means you can make a good police dog, poof, they dreaming, the dog is a coward, put on the muzzel and take the teeth away, and pressure the dog he will run off the field with no teeth working. A good working dog dont bite for no reason, they are calm and don't care and give warning if thay dont like what you do groel with tail up, plenty of time.

People who breeding dogs must look at the nerve, some have no idea, the hard nerve produces the good pet dogs, never mind the pretty as a picture to win a show, without the nerve in all dogs is where biting people comes from, just my opinion and thanks for listning

Joe

Thanks Joe, I know what you mean. A person should feel safe around someones elses well trained guard dog. They should feel "protected" too until such time that they are a genuine threat and the dog should respond in a controlled way, as per it's correct training.

Yes, thank you.

In the working breed is a big mistake to choose a reactive dog, but reactive dogs to violence makes for less training to guard so people get them bred. But, the dog has no control with the handler and makes an aminal of no prediction. You must begin with stable mind from the dog and train the dog to defend. The dog should work like a gun in normal time safe without no trigger cocking unless the handler commands to the dog to be suspicious and ready. The gun used for protection does not fire off on its own and the protection dog should be the same. On the youtube can find plenty of protection Malinios shepherd dogs trained by Ivan Balabanov, they sit in the coffee shop, the childs pet them, no worries, the dog is trained safe, not reactive to nobody very calm, until commanding to work. It makes me sad to see what happens when liking the reactive dog for working, no prediction in these dogs and dangersous for accidents to happen, but more sad to me is saying because the dogs is garding breed this reactive trait is good and make excuses for bad traits is bull.

Joe

[Lollipup]

I got told this story yesterday. My friend took her brother in law to her mother's place after he had chemotherapy for cancer and was toxic, could not touch anyone or anything but was there for a family gathering at his mother in law's house. Her dog had always been kind natured but she attacked him as soon as he came in the front door because she could smell the chemicals and the threat. She later died of the same cancer.

This is obviously an extreme and unusual case but shows they can be threatened by things humans can't detect. I thought it was an interesting story but sad of course.

[Fatsofatsoman]

I got told this story yesterday. My friend took her brother in law to her mother's place after he had chemotherapy for cancer and was toxic, could not touch anyone or anything but was there for a family gathering at his mother in law's house. Her dog had always been kind natured but she attacked him as soon as he came in the front door because she could smell the chemicals and the threat. She later died of the same cancer.

This is obviously an extreme and unusual case but shows they can be threatened by things humans can't detect. I thought it was an interesting story but sad of course.

Not to poo poo the story - because I believe the dog could quite possibly have known of the chemicals. But... She later died of the same cancer.... who? the dog or the mum? either way cancer can't be passed on, it's not contageous. Of course the toxicity is dangerous to others.

[Aidan3]

If a dog learns that putting bits of people in its mouth is OK an accident is bound to happen. I think we have Ian Dunbar to thank for this rediculous theory.

Yes, it was Dunbar, extrapolating from the literature (I think it was Fox who first documented the role of bite inhibition conditioning in very young pups).

As far as I know there isn't any research in support of either theory (teaching prohibition or teaching inhibition of biting humans). I suspect that if it is a factor, it's probably not a big one. Of all the reasons for a serious bite, I really can't see much harm minimisation coming from teaching inhibition or prohibition. Good targeting for tug or bitework, as you have mentioned, is very useful though.

[Rottigirl]

My neighbour's dog had half his face bitten off because of a socially maladjusted idiot that failed to read his dog's behaviour and effectively control it.

Duly amended to take into account the fact that I have no ability to construct a sentence. Off topic: that is really quite disturbing considering what I do for a living. Nevertheless, I'm glad my maladjusted idiot could give you a laugh, I really do hate those ones that bite faces off...

Edited March 10, 2011 by Rottigirl

[JoeK]

If a dog learns that putting bits of people in its mouth is OK an accident is bound to happen. I think we have Ian Dunbar to thank for this rediculous theory.

Yes, it was Dunbar, extrapolating from the literature (I think it was Fox who first documented the role of bite inhibition conditioning in very young pups).

As far as I know there isn't any research in support of either theory (teaching prohibition or teaching inhibition of biting humans). I suspect that if it is a factor, it's probably not a big one. Of all the reasons for a serious bite, I really can't see much harm minimisation coming from teaching inhibition or prohibition. Good targeting for tug or bitework, as you have mentioned, is very useful though.

I share my experience of the mouthing pup and not mouthing I have trained in both ways. I dont say that mouthing puppy turns to defense biting, but prey biting in fun goes to hard and he can bite you too hard in the fun. So, always I think not to have the pup mouth people never ever a good to practice this, because one day he will forget he has your arm and not the with the sleeve on and CRUNCH the bugger will draw blood yes, it will happen. You bite only the toy, tug, sleeve and teach the pup people are no place for teeth and when small and they bite everything, you stick a toy in there mouth to chew on they call redirect the drive onto appropriate article and thay learn what to bite, easily, no worries. But you let them mouth the people, one day CRUNCH not being nasty, but out of pure exciting for the dog he get carried away, but doesnt matter nasty or drive it hurts the same.

Joe

[Jed]

I don't like my dogs licking or biting. It is easy enough to stop without any drama when they are babies, so I do. I have no idea whether it leads to biting or not, I just don't like it.

I agree with JoeK, poor nerve can be a serious problem. IMHO all breeders should be aware of the need for nerve, and ensure their lines have it. Particularly in the large breeds, or shepherds and guarders.

[JoeK]

I don't like my dogs licking or biting. It is easy enough to stop without any drama when they are babies, so I do. I have no idea whether it leads to biting or not, I just don't like it.

I agree with JoeK, poor nerve can be a serious problem. IMHO all breeders should be aware of the need for nerve, and ensure their lines have it. Particularly in the large breeds, or shepherds and guarders.

Yes, to expand on my thoughts, the dog reactive to aggression does this becuase he feels stress and he wants to feel good again, no stress relaxed, so he does what it takes for him to feel good. He sees another dog and feels stress, I am feeling uneasy about that dog over there and I want him to go away so maybe I bark and act tough and he runs away, thats what the dog says to himself yes? So he bark, show his teeth and his hair stand up to make him look big and tough and the other dog runs away. Yes, he says to himself, thats how I get rid of the dog to feel good again, so next time he sees a dog, he does the same thing and YES, this works for him and he learn a behavior how to get rid of other dogs and he become dog aggressive.

But he does this because he feels stressed, he feel scared of the other dog and worried because of lacking nerve causing his worried feelings. People say to me Joe, my dog is not scared and doesnt run away hes like a bull seeing the red rag and fights hard, but he does this from fear. A dog who fears doesnt mean the dog will tuck the tail down and look scared, some dogs in fear will stand tall, tail up ready to pounce like a lion and they say to me see Joe, look is not scared in a working dog hes got civil agrression which is another words for saying the dog instead of running away, he will fight first before what he is worrying about will get him, is still fear based defense. I said on the other add, the strong dog with hard nerve, he dont care about other dogs or the woman and child over there, he knows they dont beoing there to hurt him, his mind has clarity and he knose the difference of a threat and no threat. People like a nice layed back dog and those dogs who don't care are the dogs with nerve, the best dogs to work with for any purpose mainly a pet too, becuase those dogs don't snap, best dogs with the childs to play with and take much hard handling and play before ever a reaction or snappy.

Joe

[LizT]

So are DA (dog aggressive) dogs, the kind that don't get along with other dogs in ANY situation also fearful dogs? Despite owners saying they are fine at home etc. etc. Is it a fear of other dogs and perhaps other people that makes them a potential attack risk?

But what then of cases where the dogs all appeared "normal' in their behaviour prior to the attack. Or is it again signals missed because the layman is no good at interpretting dog language?

[jesomil]

Its such a disgrace that some breeders are still producing and breeding on with dogs with poor nerve. Is it general ignorance, kennel blindness or simply beauty before brains....I dont know.

[Aidan3]

Its such a disgrace that some breeders are still producing and breeding on with dogs with poor nerve. Is it general ignorance, kennel blindness or simply beauty before brains....I dont know.

It's common enough in working lines too.

[Aidan3]

So are DA (dog aggressive) dogs, the kind that don't get along with other dogs in ANY situation also fearful dogs? Despite owners saying they are fine at home etc. etc. Is it a fear of other dogs and perhaps other people that makes them a potential attack risk?

Yes and yes, but it doesn't need to be a lot of fear and environmental factors can be a big influence (e.g owner's response, attack by another dog etc)

But what then of cases where the dogs all appeared "normal' in their behaviour prior to the attack. Or is it again signals missed because the layman is no good at interpretting dog language?

There are always signals unless those signals have been punished or extinguished.

[JoeK]

Its such a disgrace that some breeders are still producing and breeding on with dogs with poor nerve. Is it general ignorance, kennel blindness or simply beauty before brains....I dont know.

It's common enough in working lines too.

Yes is true in the working lines, but sometimes this is done because the breeder thinks is good for working to have reactivity on the dog. Much difference in Europe with the Shepherd dog who get caught in the filter in the working test is very extensive and reactive dogs fail the test, so the dogs registration is cancelled for breeding and the dog removed from the gene pool, is very helpful to filter poor nerve. But, the breeder here many dont know the trait of the true working dog because they dont work the dogs to learn the trait and put the dog in the testing filter. But very much worst in the working line is to breed viscios dogs on false understanding that viscios is needed for the work is wrong.

They see a trained dog work on the sleeve to fight the decoy and they think is good for my dog doing this exercise with no training, he works in automatic, we must breed this dog. This is false for thought, is bull, the trained dog they see, he is trained to fight, not automatic does he fight, hes beautiful dog could being childs pet dog in a different life for a family pet no worries. The dog who fights in automatic with no training too viscios for family pet is a very poor working dog, sad yes, but I put this dog to sleep, is no good very danger.

Joe

[moosmum]

As a child I was the only witness to an attack on a 10 yo.girl by a G.R.

The girl had a small bitch in season that had gotten out side where there were several wandering males attracted by the scent.

The girl picked up her dog to put her inside when the retriever jumped up,paws on her shoulders and proceeded to "chew" on her chest,shoulers and arms while the girl tried to hold him off with her hands on his shoulders.

While there may have been signs,it all happened so fast they would have been useless.

Their was no growling or excitment to this attack.It was caried out calmly and almost casualy.

It was stopped when I told my own dog to "get" it and he knocked the G.R off the girl.

If you mean signs the owners should have picked up on indicating this dog had the potential to bite,I agree but with this particular dog I think the signs might have been very subtle.

It was a family pet,raised with children.The majority have little idea of dog psychcology or how to "read" a dog apart from the very obvious signals.Experience and a desire to understand is the only real way to learn of the more subtle signs.

I agree that this was a situation with dangerous potential from the start,It wasn't random.But after that It especialy bugs me when idiots tell me my protective breed will "turn "on me.

Joe, I totaly agree with your ideas on selecting for a strong calm nerve in all dogs.I think there are very few dogs bred where the mentality gets the priority it deserves and dogs in general have been dumbed down and more unstable as a result.Just my opinion.

[LizT]

As a child I was the only witness to an attack on a 10 yo.girl by a G.R.

The girl had a small bitch in season that had gotten out side where there were several wandering males attracted by the scent.

The girl picked up her dog to put her inside when the retriever jumped up,paws on her shoulders and proceeded to "chew" on her chest,shoulers and arms while the girl tried to hold him off with her hands on his shoulders.

While there may have been signs,it all happened so fast they would have been useless.

Their was no growling or excitment to this attack.It was caried out calmly and almost casualy.

It was stopped when I told my own dog to "get" it and he knocked the G.R off the girl.

If you mean signs the owners should have picked up on indicating this dog had the potential to bite,I agree but with this particular dog I think the signs might have been very subtle.

It was a family pet,raised with children.The majority have little idea of dog psychcology or how to "read" a dog apart from the very obvious signals.Experience and a desire to understand is the only real way to learn of the more subtle signs.

I agree that this was a situation with dangerous potential from the start,It wasn't random.But after that It especialy bugs me when idiots tell me my protective breed will "turn "on me.

Joe, I totaly agree with your ideas on selecting for a strong calm nerve in all dogs.I think there are very few dogs bred where the mentality gets the priority it deserves and dogs in general have been dumbed down and more unstable as a result.Just my opinion.

It would be great if we could educate people to pick up on the signs at home that their dog is in distress. Particuarly those that believe their dog is a stable family pet and are equally shocked when things go wrong.

I've been told that my German Shepherd will "turn" on me because I feed him raw meat (along with dry food) and that this will make him vicious. Seriously somone said this to me and he was a German Shepherd owner.

I wonder if my Cavalier King Charles pack will turn on me for the same reason!!

Edited March 11, 2011 by LizT