What Makes A Dog Attack People Randomly?

[LizT]

With so many random attacks occurring by dogs that have gotten out of their yards in news Reports I've got to wondering "What makes someones family Pet attack a random child in a Park or someone elses dog on a lead?

I'm not trying to breed bash but wondering is it mainly "High Prey Drive" animals. Animals breed for fighting? Low "capacity to learn" animals ie. those that are not commonly used in obedience or are they poorly socialised animals. Sometimes the owners are very shocked to find out their dog has hurt someone. Other times I think they expected it could happen should the dog get out and wonder.

Sometimes the huge shock is that they have attacked a family member.

What are your thoughts. I'm having trouble getting my head around this. Growing up I could pick the dogs that were dangerous. They slavered and barked as you walked past the cyclone fence in the car yards or other work equipment site areas that they guarded. They were the dogs that were chained up and never left their properties. I was never fearful of the "dog in the street" or park??

[dandybrush]

i have not had raz attacked or seen an attack but im constantly fearful when im out and about, i worry all the time that raz will get attacked and i just wont be able to save him

has something happened lizT that has brought about this question?

[tlc]

I don't really have an answer to your question but just wanted to sat that the dog that bit me was totally calm and showed no signs of aggression what so ever, I had two of my dogs and my friend had one of hers and we had stopped to let these people with 3 dogs go past (all dogs on lead) as we were at a narrow section of the path we were walking on, as the people went past one of thier dogs just out of the blue flew for my youngest boy and instinctively I pulled him out of the way but as a result I got a chunk taken out of my leg, lucky for me if it had of been my dogs face he would probly have been missing an eye or worse. This dog showed no signs what so ever that it was going to attack. The worst part was the people admitted it had done it before!

[Diva]

Poodlefan has a good reference for the key risk factors for dog attacks, hopefully she will come into this thread but they have been posted before.

I am pretty sure that lack of socialisation of the dog, it's age and gender, and the demographics of the owner, were on the list. So were a number of factors to do with the victim, some age classes in a particular are much more at risk.

[Jed]

Research indicates there are a lot of different reasons for dog attacks. No dog suddenly attacks without any prior warning - but often the warnings are missed.

All we can do is speculate on the reasons for attacks. Entire dogs, dogs chained, dogs running in packs, untrained and unsocialised dogs, dogs which have recently changed ownership -- these things increase dog attacks. Breed does not seem to be an indicator. Irish Setters killed someone, as did boxers, Huskies and Collie Roughs ... a Fox Terrier and a Pomeranian killed babies in separate instances. A German Shepherd, which had not been fed for 4 or 6 days, killed a baby it was shut up with in a flat while the mother went out.

My belief is that the people who own dogs which attack either failed to observe the warning signals, or ignored them. The reasons for some attacks are self evident, but sometimes it is difficult to ascertain the reason.

The SBT which attacked the 7 year old at school - recently changed homes, not under effective control - a couple of obvious reasons, maybe there were more.

The malamute type dog which attacked the toddler - no idea.

I have always thought that instead of jumping up and down about the breed, it would make a lot more sense if the papers gave the opinion of a very good dog behaviourist for the reasons for the attack. That would help people understand how to manage their dogs to prevent attacks.

[Nekhbet]

there is no such thing as a random attack. True 'out of the blue' behaviour can occur due to brain tumours/medical problems.

most other times people cannot recognise warning signs. The dogs behaviour keeps festering and building until one day BANG you have a bite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRAHMo3zXoA

Now, watch this video especially at 45 seconds and 55 seconds. Listen to the owners. Their dog growled at a child and was hiding behind the owner, so they tried again. Then, at the times above they have the dog on a short leash, the arm around the dog and despite his avoidance behaviour (notice the pulling back, the rolling of the eyes and face) they push a doll in his face - what option does the dog have but to lash out?

Another thing is to understand the difference between a true attack and something accidental through play or prey. If a dog truely has the fight to latch onto someone and 'attack' you cant simply push that dog away. Trained or truely aggressive dogs will push in, latch on and then you have a problem. Meanwhile when I hear about nips to the faces/arms I more assume prey/fear and the dog warning or not truely wanting to engage in a full physical confrontation.

As for kids ... they scream, flail, make sudden movements and tend to behave like prey animals. That shrill cry instinctively sets off most dogs as its the same as a prey animal in pain (think about the noise squeaky toys make and why dogs love them) Set off the drive, dog chases down child and grabs it, only then does it realise 'oh bugger human!' but by then its left a few puncture wounds.

Dogs have teeth. Dogs use them, its in their nature. This is why I dont like hands off methods when dealing with, or allowing any mouthing full stop. Dog mouths, I make it really unpleasant and lesson learned quickly. Pups can learn quickly not to mouth people, you just have to not feel sorry for them when they throw a tantrum at being told off and also teach them that toys are for mouthing, never people.

I also find that in general people are fairly in the dark about dog behaviour in general. Dogs are expected to grow out of jumping and mouthing or they're bad dogs that need getting rid of I hear it A LOT! Conversely these no manners dogs just get left in the backyard and especially the stronger willed breeds, frustration and boredom build until they make a jailbreak to satisfy their drive themselves with whatever is at hand.

[Sandra777]

A lot of it is media hype.

I'd bet in most cases the dog which has escaped it's yard or is not on leash is NOT ''randomly'' attacking, it has already displayed behaviour that suggests it would bite/attack if the opportunity arose but the owner has missed it due to ignorance or simply because they pay little or no attention to the dog.

I'd also bet that in most cases of ''family pets'' attacking the dog is not a pet at all - it is kept separate from the family, it is a lawn ornament not a pet. The difference between Pet and Resident Dog is one of Karen Delise's (sp!) key factors in attacks.

Attacks by small fluffy dogs don't make the media so it may well appear that it is only certain types of dogs that are wandering around randomly attacking people but it doesn't bear a lot of resemblence to reality.

ETA: Nekhbet can type faster than I can

Edited March 9, 2011 by Sandra777

[Staranais]

And I also suspect the risk factors depend on what type of attack you're talking about.

For example, I'd imagine that statistically speaking bull breeds may be disproportionately involved in dog-on-dog attacks, compared to many other breeds, but not dog-on-human attacks.

And, the kind where the dog barks and nips and jumps up on you could just be a rowdy and poorly mannered adolescent dog, very different to a serious mauling, but they're all called "attacks" in the media.

[Remarkabull]

I see so many people get a puppy, play really rough games with it, let it bite and mouth them and then all of a sudden they expect the dog to know that it shouldn't 'play rough' or nip and bite anymore.

We had a neighbour that had a SBT X and they used to let their 4 year old daughter wrestle with it and hit it if it was 'naughty', she spent more time with the dog (without supervision) than she did with her mother, so much time that she started to squat to pee and poo on the grass just like the dog did, truly this kid was turning feral. I could see that at times the dog had had enough of this kid and would react to the child like she was another dog or litter mate and I always warned them that one day the dog would turn and bite her (at the very least) or possibly kill her due to lack of supervision. They always insisted that the dog and child were 'best mates' and that the dog 'loved' her and would never hurt her.

My own dogs have never and will never be allowed to mouth or play too roughly with anyone, adult or child. I also have a rule that my kids are not allowed to smack or man handle the dogs.

ETA I think so many of the 'attacks' could have been so easily prevented and would probably never have happened had the owners had more knowledge about dogs and dog behaviour. So amny people truly have no idea.

Edited March 9, 2011 by dobesrock

[SnoPaws]

Talking purely about my dog who is DA.

High prey drive + poor socialisation (basically no human contact until the age of 7 weeks when we picked her up) + poor breeding (from a registered byb).

I have no doubt her + swf = dead swf. Hence she has very limited contact with a select few dogs and when we aren't able to supervise her 100% she is either crated at night and when we aren't at home or in a completely enclosed run when we are home but unable to keep an eye on her. 99% of the time she is segragated from the other dogs but she is doted on by her daddy, is well exercised and is happy and healthy but it is hard work.

I really don't believe that dogs just randomly attack, I think their owners simply don't see (or don't want to see) the signs.

Edited to add my dog has never attacked someone else's dog but I know if I didn't take the precautions I do, she would be more than capable of doing so

Edited March 9, 2011 by SnoPaws

[fuzzy82]

Dogs have teeth. Dogs use them, its in their nature. This is why I dont like hands off methods when dealing with, or allowing any mouthing full stop. Dog mouths, I make it really unpleasant and lesson learned quickly. Pups can learn quickly not to mouth people, you just have to not feel sorry for them when they throw a tantrum at being told off and also teach them that toys are for mouthing, never people.

I also find that in general people are fairly in the dark about dog behaviour in general. Dogs are expected to grow out of jumping and mouthing or they're bad dogs that need getting rid of I hear it A LOT! Conversely these no manners dogs just get left in the backyard and especially the stronger willed breeds, frustration and boredom build until they make a jailbreak to satisfy their drive themselves with whatever is at hand.

I disagree, I think one of the most important things a dog can learn is bite inhibition, and the only way to learn it is to let it mouth you as a puppy. Dogs are always mouthing each other in play, it's natural and good for them, and 99.9% of the time there is no harm done, except when one of the dogs was simply taught 'never' to bite as a puppy, and so never learnt bite inhibition.

I let my puppy mouth me. He used to be rough, now he's gentle all the time. It never hurts. As a result, he's also super gentle with both the other dog and our little kitten. Our kitten will pounce on him and grab him and bite him, and he will just nuzzle her and he's mouthy when he plays with her, but he never bites her and has never hurt her.

Eventually he will learn that he should never mouth humans, but if he ever lashes out at a kid, bite inhibition will kick in and he will not do any damage.

[Nekhbet]

I disagree, I think one of the most important things a dog can learn is bite inhibition, and the only way to learn it is to let it mouth you as a puppy. Dogs are always mouthing each other in play, it's natural and good for them, and 99.9% of the time there is no harm done, except when one of the dogs was simply taught 'never' to bite as a puppy, and so never learnt bite inhibition.

I let my puppy mouth me. He used to be rough, now he's gentle all the time. It never hurts. As a result, he's also super gentle with both the other dog and our little kitten. Our kitten will pounce on him and grab him and bite him, and he will just nuzzle her and he's mouthy when he plays with her, but he never bites her and has never hurt her.

Eventually he will learn that he should never mouth humans, but if he ever lashes out at a kid, bite inhibition will kick in and he will not do any damage.

ummm. no. No dog should put their mouth on you, you are not a dog, you are a human. Bite inhibition means you DONT mouth at all.

Think of it this way ... if you want the dog to learn never to counter surf, do you put the dog on the counter and keep luring it off? or do you catch it before it jumps up there and show it the alternative?

ETA The modern ideas that mouthing is acceptable I think contributes too. Oh the dog will know what to do when it gets overexcited around a child or when we have to handle it if it's in pain! It's gentle now! Then one day it instinctively opens its jaws at you or a child and it accidentally goes too far. A dog is not a machine. They make mistakes as do we - you're basically saying that everyone with a drivers license will know what to do and an accident will never happen. If a dog learns that putting bits of people in its mouth is OK an accident is bound to happen. I think we have Ian Dunbar to thank for this rediculous theory.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Nekhbet

[A-B-C]

there is no such thing as a random attack. True 'out of the blue' behaviour can occur due to brain tumours/medical problems.

Couldn't agree more!! (with the whole post btw)

My opinion... society has forgotten that dogs are not human. Dogs are dogs. Dogs have teeth.

As society has become more 'civilised' we have forgotten this. No longer do people know how to interact with and read animals body language. No longer know the warning signs. No longer remember sayings like 'let sleeping dogs lie', 'don't pull on a dogs tail' etc etc.

... the more I am involved with people and their dogs the more I sit back in wonder in how much 'we' have lost touch with the animal kingdom.

A very basic opinion I know and there's no way that I believe that this is the only reason... it just doesn't help and is a contributing factor. Of course there's many things are also part and parcel eg lack of socialisation, training, lack of control, pack mentality, etc...

I know I will be sitting here reading many a well educated post (like Jed's, Nekhbet and pf to name a few) and be nodding my head in agreement.

[sandgrubber]

I used to teach statistics (not by choice). People get 'random' wrong, routinely. Show them true random distribution and they find a pattern. If you want to get people to think something is random, show them a randomized pattern. I know. I know. Everyone hates statistics and this is far too abstract to understand without an hour of boring lectures that you'll fall asleep in if you aren't going to be tested on. But . . . please tolerate us science nuts . . . that beer surprised me . . . the label says 8.1% . . .maybe my brain is misfiring. American beer labels don't present the 'standard drinks' thingy . . . I tend to assume the cheap ones are weak . . . wrong this time . . .

Bottom line . . . I agree with people who say patterns of attack are unlikely to be truly random. Ok, if the dog's brain is mis-firing cause it is sick, it may attack in a pattern that has nothing to do with the setting, but it's not random . . . the patterns come from the dog's sickness, not the environment.

I'll shut up . .. I don't think I'm adding anything other than jargon . . . but if anyone wants to listen there's a mega-load of evidence on humans as pattern-seeking animals who almost always fail in recognizing patterns that are truly random, and routinely classify random events as pattern. . . . and if you're looking the wrong direction for the cause you won't find the pattern. And if you ever get press ganged into teaching statistics . . .Lord help you . . . you may find this diatribe interesting.

Edited March 9, 2011 by sandgrubber

[megan_]

People also buy the wrong breed of dog for them. I know it isn't PC, but it is the truth IMO. Most of the people that I know (well educated etc) buy a dog on its looks. The rest comes a distant second.

[ish]

Often when you hear of a dog attacking a person, further details show that a dog has attacked their dog while out walking etc and they have interfered and copped bites. Is that really a dog attack on a person? I think not. Completely understandable reaction when your own dog is under threat but dogs involved in a fight are fighting to protect themselves and don't distinguish between the other dog or a persons hand, no matter how friendly they usually are

[LizT]

i have not had raz attacked or seen an attack but im constantly fearful when im out and about, i worry all the time that raz will get attacked and i just wont be able to save him

has something happened lizT that has brought about this question?

I saw on the News that a Toddler (16 months old boy) had been attacked and mauled by a Malamute in a Park. That is the extent of my knowlege of the story details apart from seeing this poor hysterical mother crying (as I would be) when retelling her story on camera.

Each time I hear a story of this type (I am 50 next birthday, so there's been alot over the years) something inside me dies a little as I wonder how this could have been avoided? Maybe the breed was a cross bred maybe it was a pure. Does it make a difference...possibly but probably not.....or is it purely due to the many variables of the animals environmental conditioning??

[LizT]

I disagree, I think one of the most important things a dog can learn is bite inhibition, and the only way to learn it is to let it mouth you as a puppy. Dogs are always mouthing each other in play, it's natural and good for them, and 99.9% of the time there is no harm done, except when one of the dogs was simply taught 'never' to bite as a puppy, and so never learnt bite inhibition.

I let my puppy mouth me. He used to be rough, now he's gentle all the time. It never hurts. As a result, he's also super gentle with both the other dog and our little kitten. Our kitten will pounce on him and grab him and bite him, and he will just nuzzle her and he's mouthy when he plays with her, but he never bites her and has never hurt her.

Eventually he will learn that he should never mouth humans, but if he ever lashes out at a kid, bite inhibition will kick in and he will not do any damage.

ummm. no. No dog should put their mouth on you, you are not a dog, you are a human. Bite inhibition means you DONT mouth at all.

Think of it this way ... if you want the dog to learn never to counter surf, do you put the dog on the counter and keep luring it off? or do you catch it before it jumps up there and show it the alternative?

ETA The modern ideas that mouthing is acceptable I think contributes too. Oh the dog will know what to do when it gets overexcited around a child or when we have to handle it if it's in pain! It's gentle now! Then one day it instinctively opens its jaws at you or a child and it accidentally goes too far. A dog is not a machine. They make mistakes as do we - you're basically saying that everyone with a drivers license will know what to do and an accident will never happen. If a dog learns that putting bits of people in its mouth is OK an accident is bound to happen. I think we have Ian Dunbar to thank for this rediculous theory.

See, this is another thing that confuses me. I have always felt that no part of a person belongs in a dogs mouth whether in play or seriousness.

Yet five years ago when I had my GSD at a mixed breed obedience school as a young dog who had been attending for a number of months he started "holding' my wrist as we heeled. And he started doing this to my husband and I and the kids at home. I tried to discourage this behaviour, yes, he was incredibly gentle in his hold and it didn't cause any fear or concern to any family member..it was more a slobbered wrist and "you're not heeling properly" issue as far as I was concerned.

However our instructor fully encouraged this behaviour and had me allow him to do this during our lessons...."to teach him to be gentle". I bowed to the instructors superior knowledge at the time (but was it really?) but was pleased when he seemed to outgrow this behaviour (but he was well and truly into this second year before he stopped fully) of his own accord. At 5 years of age he never does it anymore. Perhaps he picked up on the fact that I wasn't to happy when he did it? He is a smart boy.

Edited March 9, 2011 by LizT

[jacqui835]

I was kind of offended when I read a lot of the material in this thread. I own a large, high prey drive, entire male doberman. I hate the thought that people automatically assume he's more likely to be dangerous than other breeds, and cop it all the time when people meet him for the first time. I did not expect to get that here though.

As for the, you should train a dog to find biting (or mouthing humans) unpleasant, that sounds ridiculous to me. Typically I really respect what a lot of the behaviouralists have to say on these threads and try to apply what I can. But I would like to know what information they have to support the crazy notion that a mouthy dog (who doesn't have unpleasant associations towards having humans in their mouths) is a dog less likely to bite under the wrong circumstances.

What about all of the retrievers who are by nature mouthy? Or is that different and ok..

My dog has a huge mouth, huge teeth and can destroy huge bones and kong toys very quickly. He also often mouths me and my partner and a kitten. None of us have a single mark on us, and I have not had to correct him for biting too hard since he was about 10 weeks old. I play tug of war with this dog, get him riled up until his pupils take up his whole eye and yet I can happily and without any fear stick my hand in his mouth at any time.

It's called bite inhibition, and it's something dogs understand.

When a dog decides to bite a human, decides to inflict damage to another creature with their mouth, in my mind at least this is a dog that is at a point where previous unpleasant experiences won't stop it from doing so. This is a desperate animal.

Why do dogs 'randomly' attack? These are dogs that don't have another way to communicate, who feel that their other warnings were ignored, and who probably didn't know how to express discomfort to a different species in the first place from lack of a relationship with humans. Frustrated, mentally unstable, too much energy and no known outlets. Bad habits, fears, all the rest of it. But you can know your dog, and your dog can know you. This is why I buy puppies from good breeders so you don't have worry as much about that sort of thing.

But please don't spread anymore propagnada. Statistically certain factors may make a dog more likely to be involved in an attack, but think about the other factors involved - who wants those breeds normally and who doesn't desex their dog.

[LizT]

I have always thought that instead of jumping up and down about the breed, it would make a lot more sense if the papers gave the opinion of a very good dog behaviourist for the reasons for the attack. That would help people understand how to manage their dogs to prevent attacks.

A good idea in principle Jed but I dread the thought of a Media provided "Expert".