White Labradors?

[sandgrubber]

I think most are agreed that the 'silver Labrador' is a hoax. But I remember Mary Roslin Williams in Advanced Labrador Breeding describing a magnificant pure white animal with pitch black points . .. . and suggesting that there was a legit white Lab, as opposed to a 'yellow'. I'm in the US now, and in looking over dogs here I find quite a few people claiming to have 'white labs'. The AKC breeders among them note that the 'white' is a subset of 'yellow' as recognized by the breed standard. But, having done a bit of looking, eg, see the pictures you get if you google 'white Labrador' and check the pictures link (http://www.google.com/images?oe=UTF-8&gfns=1&q=white+labrador&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=cUh2TZiKPIO2sAOc8JzTBA&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1403&bih=901), I find myself thinking that there may be a 'white' as distinct from 'yellow', and that the whites are just as Labrador as yellows, chocos and blacks. (These are mostly US Labs, and some of them aren't so good by English/Australian standards, and some of the pictures shown are clearly yellow or chocolate . .. but some look like there's no yellow pigment in the coat).

Does genetics bear this out?

If genetics and the breed standard part company, and white is not just a variant of yellow, what happens.

edited cause the links didn't work.

Edited March 8, 2011 by sandgrubber

[shortstep]

I think most are agreed that the 'silver Labrador' is a hoax. But I remember Mary Roslin Williams in Advanced Labrador Breeding describing a magnificant pure white animal with pitch black points . .. . and suggesting that there was a legit white Lab, as opposed to a 'yellow'. I'm in the US now, and in looking over dogs here I find quite a few people claiming to have 'white labs'. The AKC breeders among them note that the 'white' is a subset of 'yellow' as recognized by the breed standard. But, having done a bit of looking, eg, see the pictures you get if you google 'white Labrador' and check the pictures link (http://www.google.com/images?oe=UTF-8&gfns=1&q=white+labrador&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=cUh2TZiKPIO2sAOc8JzTBA&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1403&bih=901), I find myself thinking that there may be a 'white' as distinct from 'yellow', and that the whites are just as Labrador as yellows, chocos and blacks. (These are mostly US Labs, and some of them aren't so good by English/Australian standards, and some of the pictures shown are clearly yellow or chocolate . .. but some look like there's no yellow pigment in the coat).

Does genetics bear this out?

If genetics and the breed standard part company, and white is not just a variant of yellow, what happens.

edited cause the links didn't work.

Not knowing the colour genetics of the breed, my guess would be recessive red (ee) with phaeomelanin dilution (cece)???

Here is a link about c = chinchilla

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/albino.htm

Edited March 8, 2011 by shortstep

[LizT]

I've seen some Golden Retireivers that are so "Blonde" the almost appear white! Especially as puppies.

[sandgrubber]

There was a big brew-ha-ha a couple years back on DOL about whether it was ok to say a Labrador was 'cream' . . . the Labrador breed standard only recognises three colours . . . yellow, black, and chocolate/liver (no one EVER EVER says liver). Majority opinion was that it was not ok to describe a lab as 'cream', though the breed standard says yellow may range from cream to red fox. No one even mentioned 'white'. I thought I was kicking a hornets nest by asking about whites. I've had dogs I would call 'cream' but their ears always turn yellowish when they mature. The 'whites' I'm talking about seem to lack even the faintest yellow tint, but still have black noses, pads, eye-rims, etc., like, say a Westie. I find them quite striking and am curious about whether they breed true and how the colour genetics works.

Note colour genetics in Labs is generally described in terms of only B/b and E/e genes, but Wing'NWave Labradors provides a more complete explaination of 'white . . . from http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#WhiteThe "White" Form of Yellow

Although the "white" color is considered by most Lab breeders to be a very light shade of yellow, this color may be quite distinct from the yellow shade that may represent cream-colored yellows represented as genotype [A^s_B_ c^ch_ee] above. In fact, the "white" color may be represented by another allele that may be found at the C locus. The "c^d" allele is responsible for producing white hair in other breeds of dogs, like the West Highland White Terrier, while allowing full expression of dark nose and eye pigment. Though this white color may be distinct from the yellow coloration, it should still be grouped with the other yellow variations since its expression is also controlled by both the E and C loci.

I guess, technically, I was thinking that the breed standard focus is on the E and B locus .. . can the standard recognize another variation that is coming form the C locus in combination with the E and B loci. Getting pretty technical. Sorry.

I've seen some Golden Retireivers that are so "Blonde" the almost appear white! Especially as puppies.

Edited March 9, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Bartok]

My Cream lab is 10 now but still quite pale

This is him as a 10mths old

[shortstep]

There was a big brew-ha-ha a couple years back on DOL about whether it was ok to say a Labrador was 'cream' . . . the Labrador breed standard only recognises three colours . . . yellow, black, and chocolate/liver (no one EVER EVER says liver). Majority opinion was that it was not ok to describe a lab as 'cream', though the breed standard says yellow may range from cream to red fox. No one even mentioned 'white'. I thought I was kicking a hornets nest by asking about whites. I've had dogs I would call 'cream' but their ears always turn yellowish when they mature. The 'whites' I'm talking about seem to lack even the faintest yellow tint, but still have black noses, pads, eye-rims, etc., like, say a Westie. I find them quite striking and am curious about whether they breed true and how the colour genetics works.

Note colour genetics in Labs is generally described in terms of only B/b and E/e genes, but Wing'NWave Labradors provides a more complete explaination of 'white . . . from http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#WhiteThe "White" Form of Yellow

Although the "white" color is considered by most Lab breeders to be a very light shade of yellow, this color may be quite distinct from the yellow shade that may represent cream-colored yellows represented as genotype [A^s_B_ c^ch_ee] above. In fact, the "white" color may be represented by another allele that may be found at the C locus. The "c^d" allele is responsible for producing white hair in other breeds of dogs, like the West Highland White Terrier, while allowing full expression of dark nose and eye pigment. Though this white color may be distinct from the yellow coloration, it should still be grouped with the other yellow variations since its expression is also controlled by both the E and C loci.

Not an expert, but the lighter reds, the creams, I would think indicate they are already being affected by c. c I would guess, is well represented in the breed and has been there as long as there has been any lightening of red. No surprise a white would eventually result and yes they can certainly be bred for, lots of white dogs are e and c based. you might want to check and see if e or c can be DNA tested for in labs.

BTW I can think of at least one standard that flies in the face of modern knowledge about colour genetics when it comes ot coat colour. Worse, everyone knows it is wrong, yet there is strong opposition to change the standard to reflect modern genetics, instead they want to keep culling dogs for colours that will keep appearing in the breed and reducing the gene pool of possible valuable dogs for no good reason.

Edited March 9, 2011 by shortstep

[sandgrubber]

I'll bet he's a good boy and he'll enjoy good health.

I'd guess he won't darken a lot more, based on the 'creams' I've owned. But probably more cream than white . . .

I enjoy the color spectum and it chafes me that the breed standard wants to lump the whole thing into three categories.

My Cream lab is 10 now but still quite pale

This is him as a 10mths old

Edited March 9, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Bartok]

I'll bet he's a good boy and he'll enjoy good health.

I'd guess he won't darken a lot more, based on the 'creams' I've owned. But probably more cream than white . . .

I enjoy the color spectum and it chafes me that the breed standard wants to lump the whole thing into three categories.

My Cream lab is 10 now but still quite pale

This is him as a 10mths old

My beautiful man is now 10 and a little darker but not much

The only think I worry about is his tummy and nose but i have cream

for his nose and he spends alot of time inside.

He is my darling old man. Mind u he doesnt look like a marathon runner anymore,

more like a retired discus thrower lol

[LizT]

I'll bet he's a good boy and he'll enjoy good health.

I'd guess he won't darken a lot more, based on the 'creams' I've owned. But probably more cream than white . . .

I enjoy the color spectum and it chafes me that the breed standard wants to lump the whole thing into three categories.

My Cream lab is 10 now but still quite pale

This is him as a 10mths old

Yes, some of the Chocolates are quite Russet aren't they?