Why Is Aus Becoming So Non Dog Friendly

[macka]

I've just been in Paris. They have dogs in cafes (inside not just outside), in shops, on trains, everywhere. Compared to there we are very non-dog friendly.

[Keira&Phoenix]

I think the point Jakemon was making is not that we don't have facilites for dogs but why are we so restricted and getting more and more restricted then say places like Europe where your dog can be anywhere anytime (ie, trains, cafes) where our dogs are banned in those places.

I don't know what it is, but Aussies in general seem to have an aversion towards keeping dogs inside and taking them to training classes, or training them in general.

I am European originally, and in Europe 99% of dogs are kept inside with the families, even during the day when the family is at work. Most dogs are trained, a lot of them are taken to training classes from an early age. Clicker training and crating is much more popular over there than what it is here in Australia.

Here, when we walked past a dog we usually get lunged at or the dog pulls like crazy to get to us. In Europe, dogs are walked off leash and ignore all strangers and other dogs, and are generally much more well behaved. If your dog isn't trained in Europe, you would be embarrassed to be seen in public with it, and other dog owners would frown at you for not bothering to train your dog.

Don't know why, but that was one of the first things I noticed when I moved here.

I think the fact that you can walk your dog off leash everywhere contributes to the well behaved dogs. Because you can take them (as they are not banned) you do and because of that the dogs are better socialised and learn to ignore people they are walking past, they learn to sit quietly in cafes etc so on and so forth. But here we cannot do that with our dogs so they don't get that socialisation. And because dogs are such a big part of the culture over there training is better, the dogs are more accepted into the families, its a roll on effect.

Wouldn't you like to be more like some European countries where your dog could travel on the train, join you at a cafe and enjoy a swim at a beach without an hour drive?

No.

I find your thread really insulting as well.

That is a bit harsh really.

[raz]

That is a bit harsh really.

How is it harsh? I was agreeing with another poster. I object to being told Australians are bogans while the French are refined just because they let their dogs shit all over the pavement. That's insulting! I'm really bloody cranky about it.

[Keira&Phoenix]

That is a bit harsh really.

How is it harsh? I was agreeing with another poster. I object to being told Australians are bogans while the French are refined just because they let their dogs shit all over the pavement. That's insulting! I'm really bloody cranky about it.

Because I think that Jakemon's intention was not to insult Australian's and it has been taken out of context and made insulting, he just used terms that have been bandied about for years.

Jakemon never said they were more refined because they allow dogs to shit all over the pavement. He just said more refined (and he never said it was a good thing).

We are Australian there is nothing to be ashamed of, No I don't think we as a society are as refined as the French but I also think that the French's refinement also makes them come off as stuck up and rude sometime (no offence to any French people I have met some very lovely French nationals and I said "come of as" not they are stuck up, just to clarify ) so I wouldn't want to be like them anyways. We are a laid back culture (when it comes to everything but dogs) and that makes us who we are and the reason many foreigners love our country so much. Some people call our laid backness boganess oh well.

So you really wouldn't want to be able to take your dog on the train, to sit at a cafe with you or to any beach or park you wanted?

Edited March 8, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[megan_]

I think the fact that you can walk your dog off leash everywhere contributes to the well behaved dogs. Because you can take them (as they are not banned) you do and because of that the dogs are better socialised and learn to ignore people they are walking past

Really? Try telling that to Husky owners :-).

People who don't like dogs (for whatever reason) have the right to walk down a street and not encounter an off leash dog.

I would love to see dogs being more a part of the family, but I draw the line at letting them roam everywhere off leash! I have a dog that was used as a breeding bitch at a puppy farm. She doesn't like off lead dogs approaching her. I don't want to live in a society where I can't take her for a walk down the street without a "oh, he's friendly" off leash dog approaching her.

This is where dog owners can be their own worst enemy. Instead of asking for something with a little restraint, we want our dogs to go everywhere. All the time. Off leash. And then we wonder why people balk.

ETA: I don't want our roads paved in shit like Paris either. Give me Finland any day!

Edited March 8, 2011 by megan_

[raz]

So you really wouldn't want to be able to take your dog on the train, to sit at a cafe with you or to any beach or park you wanted?

I was pretty clear in my first post. I'm quite happy that my city isnt known as the dog shit capital of the world. Refined or not, the French are not known for cleaning up after their dogs. If that makes them refined and Australians bogans just because they can sit in a cafe with frufru, I'll continue to be insulted.

[trojka]

In a nutshell: owners.

To expand on this a bit more, someone from Finland posted recently about the differences in attitudes between Finland and Australia.

From it, I gathered:

i) Dog ownership was considered a privilege. You saved until you could afford one, had stable housing, researched the dog that you wanted etc. You didn't buy one because you had a dog growing up and you think the kids would like it (even though you don't actually want one yourself). Australia has a very high level of dog ownership. Often this is touted as a good thing, but I don't think it is. I think there are many dogs sitting in backyard, bought because they were cute/looked like a wolf/keep the kids busy etc that aren't really cared for. People have very different lifestyles these days and unless they are willing to make some sacrifices they shouldn't get a dog. There is nothing wrong with choosing other priorities over a dog, as long as you don't go out and buy one.

ii) The standard of expected care was a lot higher. If you didn't walk your dog regularly, people would - out of concern for the dog - talk to you about it. If you didn't do anything then you'd get a visit from the police (I think). None of this "it's none of your business" or "I'm gunna deck yous" crap.

iii) Because of the points above, dog ownership rates are lower. People value their dogs and take them out to training, socialisation etc.

A well trained, well behaved dog is a pleasure to have around. And so they are allowed in a lot more places.

Until there is a fundamental shift in Australian attitudes, I think things are just going to get worse. I, for one, wouldn't want 90% of dogs in my local area anywhere near a restuarant that I was having a nice meal at. They would spoil it, and there owners would let them.

I agree with this. I am not from Finland, but where I am from the attitude is generally the same. A dog is seen as a big commitment, not just something to stick in the backyard.

x2

Just a little example: I didn't have a car for a few months last year. All the vets are quite far away, so walking (especially in an emergency) would not have been an option. Since I cannot take my dog on the bus, there was no way of getting to a vet, other than relying on friends (and I don't know that many people here yet). This left me feeling bery uneasy, until I finally got a car again. In Switzerland, where I grew up, I would not have had that problem, I took my girl on trams, buses and trains all the time. She and all the other dogs I ever met on public transport have been very well behaved. She also went to a restaurant for the first time as an 11 week old puppy, a week after I got her, and peacefully slept under the table the whole time (and every time after that).

So, while there might be water bowls out the front of cafes here (might have something to do with the climate as well?), this to me does not constitute a dog friendly society. I'd rather be able to take my dog to restaurants and cafes, shops and on public transport and carry his water around myself any day. The main problem to me is public transport, so much so, that I have thought about making some sort of "guide-dog-look-alike-harness" (don't worry, I haven't). I would imagine the fact that dogs aren't allowed in so many places would contribute significantly to the number of dogs that never leave their backyard.

And I can't see why this thread would be seen as insulting.

[Keira&Phoenix]

I think the fact that you can walk your dog off leash everywhere contributes to the well behaved dogs. Because you can take them (as they are not banned) you do and because of that the dogs are better socialised and learn to ignore people they are walking past

Really? Try telling that to Husky owners :-).

People who don't like dogs (for whatever reason) have the right to walk down a street and not encounter an off leash dog.

I would love to see dogs being more a part of the family, but I draw the line at letting them roam everywhere off leash! I have a dog that was used as a breeding bitch at a puppy farm. She doesn't like off lead dogs approaching her. I don't want to live in a society where I can't take her for a walk down the street without a "oh, he's friendly" off leash dog approaching her.

This is where dog owners can be their own worst enemy. Instead of asking for something with a little restraint, we want our dogs to go everywhere. All the time. Off leash. And then we wonder why people balk.

ETA: I don't want our roads paved in shit like Paris either. Give me Finland any day!

Hi Megan,

Absolutely you shouldn't walk down the road and be approached by an off lead dog but if you read the quote in my post the poster (and Trojka in the last post) mentioned that the dogs don't approach the people they walk with their owners past, it's all in the training and socialisation that they receive. Owners put in the effort over there so they can take the dog everywhere.

I don't necessarily think they should be able to go everywhere but there are more restrictions being applied every year, soon we won't be able to leave our back yards with them. Although that's about the same for everything in Australia really, more and more restrictions.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[Rebanne]

. I would imagine the fact that dogs aren't allowed in so many places would contribute significantly to the number of dogs that never leave their backyard.

Rubbish, just because you can't take your dog into a cafe is not the reason dogs never leave their backyard.

[fuzzy82]

I think the fact that you can walk your dog off leash everywhere contributes to the well behaved dogs. Because you can take them (as they are not banned) you do and because of that the dogs are better socialised and learn to ignore people they are walking past

Really? Try telling that to Husky owners :-).

People who don't like dogs (for whatever reason) have the right to walk down a street and not encounter an off leash dog.

I would love to see dogs being more a part of the family, but I draw the line at letting them roam everywhere off leash! I have a dog that was used as a breeding bitch at a puppy farm. She doesn't like off lead dogs approaching her. I don't want to live in a society where I can't take her for a walk down the street without a "oh, he's friendly" off leash dog approaching her.

This is where dog owners can be their own worst enemy. Instead of asking for something with a little restraint, we want our dogs to go everywhere. All the time. Off leash. And then we wonder why people balk.

ETA: I don't want our roads paved in shit like Paris either. Give me Finland any day!

They don't "run around everywhere" because they are off leash. They usually walk calmly 2-5 metres in front of their owner, and stop when asked and return to the owner when asked to. They are really not offensive at all despite being off leash, no more than any trained dog on a long leash would be. And they ignore strangers, they are not allowed to run up to strangers, that would not be accepted at all, because like you said it could be someone who doesn't like or is scared of dogs, or a young child etc etc. If another dog was approaching they would call the dog to them and it would walk in heel position until it was determined whether meeting the other dog was ok or not. Dogs do not run wild over there just because they are off leash. That is the whole point, they CAN be off leash because they behave the way they should. Your opinion is influenced by the Aussie dogs you have met.

Where I am from dogs are not allowed inside cafes. They are allowed outside cafes as long as they are quiet and calm, and on trains/buses, and of course you have to clean up after them. Even if they poo on the pavement, it doesn't matter, because it gets picked up. People generally don't pick up dog poo around here, I see dog poo regularly whenever I leave the house, that never happened when I was living in Europe, another thing I noticed when I moved here.

Edited March 8, 2011 by fuzzy82

[Keira&Phoenix]

I think the fact that you can walk your dog off leash everywhere contributes to the well behaved dogs. Because you can take them (as they are not banned) you do and because of that the dogs are better socialised and learn to ignore people they are walking past

Really? Try telling that to Husky owners :-).

People who don't like dogs (for whatever reason) have the right to walk down a street and not encounter an off leash dog.

I would love to see dogs being more a part of the family, but I draw the line at letting them roam everywhere off leash! I have a dog that was used as a breeding bitch at a puppy farm. She doesn't like off lead dogs approaching her. I don't want to live in a society where I can't take her for a walk down the street without a "oh, he's friendly" off leash dog approaching her.

This is where dog owners can be their own worst enemy. Instead of asking for something with a little restraint, we want our dogs to go everywhere. All the time. Off leash. And then we wonder why people balk.

ETA: I don't want our roads paved in shit like Paris either. Give me Finland any day!

They don't "run around everywhere" because they are off leash. They usually walk calmly 2-5 metres in front of their owner, and stop when asked and return to the owner when asked to. They are really not offensive at all despite being off leash, no more than any trained dog on a long leash would be. And they ignore strangers, they are not allowed to run up to strangers, that would not be accepted at all, because like you said it could be someone who doesn't like or is scared of dogs, or a young child etc etc. If another dog was approaching they would call the dog to them and it would walk in heel position until it was determined whether meeting the other dog was ok or not. Dogs do not run wild over there just because they are off leash. That is the whole point, they CAN be off leash because they behave the way they should. Your opinion is influenced by the Aussie dogs you have met.

Where I am from dogs are not allowed inside cafes. They are allowed outside cafes as long as they are quiet and calm, and on trains/buses, and of course you have to clean up after them. Even if they poo on the pavement, it doesn't matter, because it gets picked up. People generally don't pick up dog poo around here, I see dog poo regularly whenever I leave the house, that never happened when I was living in Europe, another thing I noticed when I moved here.

Thank you, your worded that better than I did or could have!

[poodlefan]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch.....

I think Australia is becoming less dog friendly for a range of reasons:

* increasing urbanisation, smaller blocks and more dual income families see dogs left alone a lot.

* not all families compensate for this by spending more time with the dog.

* breed choice hasn't always followed changes in demographics so you've got a lot of breeds probably unsuited to their familes

* then we have a loss of recreational space.

Result: more dogs, in less space, with less time given to their exercise and possibly not ideally suited to their owners. Many of them won't have had a lot of training.

So that means more dog poo, less control and some folk who object to being accosted by dogs in range of situations.

God knows why but IMO the average Aussie thinks its the job of government to "do something" about anything that inconveniences them. Government oils the squeaky wheels and restricts dogs while the apathy of most Aussies about things political allows it to happen and many simply ignore the restrictions making things worse.

Australians IMO are not a particularly tolerant society. While we like to think we are, my observation is most Australians are tolerant only to the point where they are inconvenienced by something. Then they seem to like it banned.

Governments like bans. They're cheap, they're seem to be doing something and they can be nice earners. So we ban when we might simply penalise the irresponsible. Its dog owners loss.

I could probably ramble on for a while about how increasingly disconnected from nature many folk are and that they see all animal behaviour through the lens of their own but that's a whole nuther issue

Edited March 8, 2011 by poodlefan

[SkySoaringMagpie]

There's a bit of "look, there goes Elvis!" in this thread.

Forget the third world countries and the dirty metro - they could do better but so could we. I don't think we are becoming dog unfriendly, I think we are adjusting poorly to the changes in our society and some dogs are paying the price. We have some deeply held cultural values, some of them going back to how the country was settled, which teach us how to see dogs from an early age. Some of those values are risky when you combine them with modern society.

A huge one is dogs are not to be inside, another is not to be soft and not to make a fuss. My grandparents had a dog and being of country background would have been horrified about having him inside. However, they spent a lot of time in the (large) yard on the vegie garden and projects. These days people are much more house bound, and I think many have failed to make the lifestyle transition with their dogs. Plus bogan attitude extends to dog ownership, just as it does to everything else. Arctic breeds appeal to the bogan, and the bogan is probably the least suited to raising them responsibly.

[Staranais]

NZ is similar. I'd love to be able to take my dog on the train & be allowed off leash in more areas - I'd be happy to muzzle and sit tests in order to be able to do so.

I don't really know, but I kind of think the increase in restrictive dog laws is a symptoms of society becoming more risk adverse and self centred. And I mean that both on the part of dog owners, and non-dog owners.

On the one hand, there are lots of irresponsible owners and untrained dogs out there - many dog owners don't seem to get why their dog should have manners in public or why it needs to learn to follow commands before it's allowed off leash, or don't see why they should pick up after their dog, meaning that their dog is a huge annoyance to everyone else.

Where as non dog owners are panicked about dog attacks and don't want even a remote chance of getting hurt or inconvenienced by someone else's dog. And it's easier to just blanket ban dogs than single out the good & ban owners, so there is a tendency to make dog laws based on the lowest common denominator (irresponsible owner with an untrained dog).

[Erny]

I'd like to be able to take my dog and have other people take their dogs to more places and be welcome. I tend to agree that here in Australia the dog world is in a spiral going backwards (generally speaking) with our laws becoming more and more restrictive and with that, our freedom to take our dogs to different places with us more and more prohibitive.

Dogs brought up in a community where it is common place to visit busy places; learn to sit patiently whilst their owners eat/have coffee; learn to ignore people (this comes with the concept of neutralisation as the people in those OS communities are so used to seeing dogs around they wouldn't crow over seeing a dog so much and the dog wouldn't learn to be so excited and distracted by their behaviour) would be habituated to that sort of environment - it would be considered normal to the dog, no big deal.

I take my dog to populated places when I can. Outdoor Cafe's mainly because there's not that many other shops (if there are any at all) to which I can take him with me. Trouble is that sometimes I need to visit one or two other places, which means I need to make a special trip just for him. I could drive and leave him in the car, but not if it is warm weather. And who wants to sit at an outdoor cafe when it is cold? (Although I have done this in the name of Mandela's critical period socialisation/habituation experiences ..... he was born in Winter.) And so it goes that I can't take him where I might want as often as I might want. And so he is not permitted those experiences.

I would not want a place where dog poop on the streets is the norm, but I would like a place where dogs with balanced minds and temperaments populated and were an accepted part of community, rather than a society where (even though it fortunately did not get in) a law to ban dogs at cafe's because a dog hair might land in someone's meal had to even be entertained before it could be knocked on the head.

[Little Gifts]

I think dogs are still considered more in terms of being working animals than pets in Australia and that it goes back to our farming heritage. We've never really had kings and queens in their finery strutting their lawns accompanied by their pampered pooches over here. We all come from working class people who owned very little, had practical jobs and worked hard. Dogs were meant to be outside and eat the left overs. They weren't pampered and either served a purpose of guarding the family/house or being work dogs on the farm. You spent your hard earned money on making a better life for your kids, not any stray animals they might bring home.

And now we are the result of all that hard work. We are having less children, have higher needs and wants, and more disposable cash. What can we spend it on to make ourselves feel good?

Having travelled in third and first world countries, particularly the older european countries, loads of people own dogs in the UK regardless of how big a yard they have and they even take them on holidays, including overseas hols. Dogs have shifted from being owned only by royalty, hunters and farmers in these older countries to being owned by the 'common people'. These dogs now live warmly indoors in lovely kitted out crates and get taken for walks even in the most ghastly weather. Travelling with your pet is so normal that I don't think I have stayed in a B&B in England that didn't accept dogs. Imagine how heavenly that would be here! No phoning around and searching the internet desperately for somewhere you can take your beloved fur babies. I can't however imagine any of us taking our dog to say NZ for a holiday but that is in effect what the English do when they do their warm weather trips in Europe during the summer for thousands of extra pounds. But even these countries have expanded what is acceptable in terms of dog ownership. I'm sure regular pet owners of the previous generation didn't spend money on pet insurance or consider the Bionic Vet a viable option for their lovable cross breeds either.

So I think we are just a few steps behind is all.

I think we are undergoing a shift in Australia and some of it has to do with people having smaller families (inc extended families), with pets now finding a space within the family unit rather than sitting outside it. I think as a society we are just not as advanced in our relationship between man and dog yet and that we are at the cross over point - hence all the rules to still try and keep a safe distance between the two species in public. Maybe in another couple of decades here in Australia we will be able to take our pets on public transport (like in London), keep them with us in our retirement villa, irresponsible pet ownership will be openly frowned upon and the companion animal (rather than the old working dog) will be valued and embraced by society and not just a few animal lovers.

But let's face it, at present, for a land girt by sea we have an awful lot of beaches off limits to dogs. That sums it all up for me.

[Erny]

Oh .... and as to the "why" ???

I don't know how it began. I think society attitude amplified by much of media attention to 'bad dogs' (so to speak). Perhaps influenced by new cultures (I'm not sure what Aussie culture is anymore, or how much of it there is around) and their attitudes towards dogs??? Complaints to authorities followed by the resultant restrictive laws that now seem to be going a bit out of control??? A trend of attitude. I think the best thing to change the situation would be to change the attitude trend. I've mentioned this before - kind of like how peer pressure made smoking an anti-social act. So we need to make people who don't pick up after their dogs; who don't train their dogs towards good behaviour; who are irresponsible in their ownership of dogs, feel like lepers. Just as I felt when I used to still smoke and needed to nick out for a puff. I think that if this could be achieved (getting the snowball rolling in the opposite direction than it is now is going to be the absolute hardest and longest thing to start) then public opinion could be swayed. Maybe. Just my thoughts.

[Staranais]

Thinking about it, I do think that dog owners don't always help themselves either.

When I go to our local offleash trail/jogging/cycling area I have several times been complimented on my dog's "good manners", and people reasonably regularly look astounded when I do simple things like cue her to stop zooming around and immediately come back and walk close by my side off leash when we are passing joggers, or tell her to move off the path and hold a down stay as people with kids go by.

I'm not saying that to brag about my dog, as she's hardly an angel. But I'm just thinking aloud, that it's a little sad that people are impressed that we can do (and that we do do) these basic things.

I don't know which comes first, though. Are dogs getting banned from public places because they're often unmannerly? Or are dogs unmannerly since they're only allowed off leash in a few special areas (and owners therefore put a lower priority on control and good manners, since the dog is only ever going to be off leash in areas where allowed to do what it pleases)?

Thinking further, in rural areas, almost all of the dogs I've seen out in public places (e.g. tagging along with farmers at the stock sales) are very well behaved, and obey on cue, like my dog does at the park.

[Erny]

Thinking about it, I do think that dog owners don't always help themselves either.

I absolutely agree with this. It's why I think we dog owners who want change need to be almost a bit over the top and exemplary with demonstrating how good our dogs can be (just as you do, Staranais); with being very conscientious about courtesy to others (offering even more than perhaps they need or would expect); and that includes how we communicate to those people ourselves.

[Little Gifts]

I agree. Think about the common things we complain about - they relate to an owner's management of their dog, not the dog itself. So of course everyone gets punished when things go wrong because the bad owners don't give a toss.