'impure' Dalmatian Angers Traditionalists At The Elite Pedigre

[shortstep]

Appropriate word of the day.

Curtail

To cut short.

We should curtail our visit and return home.

Cur is an engish word that means dog, a working dog and usually depicted with a docked or bob tail in art work from the time.

During the 10th century people could keep dogs but they had to be mutilated to they could not steel game from the royals.

For small dogs they would have their feet mutilated. Livestock dogs would have their tails docked.

They docked the tail as this would not interfere with their ability to work.

Docking was known as Curtailing, to cut short the tail.

Later they applied taxes to dog ownership, but curtailed dogs owned by farmers were exempt.

I thought I read this history of docking was also true for gun and hunting dogs but could not find that said today. Perhaps someone else knows.

[Boxerheart]

Appropriate word of the day.

Curtail

To cut short.

We should curtail our visit and return home.

Cur is an engish word that means dog, a working dog and usually depicted with a docked or bob tail in art work from the time.

During the 10th century people could keep dogs but they had to be mutilated to they could not steel game from the royals.

For small dogs they would have their feet mutilated. Livestock dogs would have their tails docked.

They docked the tail as this would not interfere with their ability to work.

Docking was known as Curtailing, to cut short the tail.

Later they applied taxes to dog ownership, but curtailed dogs owned by farmers were exempt.

I thought I read this history of docking was also true for gun and hunting dogs but could not find that said today. Perhaps someone else knows.

Very interesting

[Steve]

I think I may have found the reason people DNA test Bob tailed dogs for the Bob tail gene. It is so they can prove the dog was not docked.

Peae correct me if I am wrong.

Thats right

[Erny]

I say well done to them. They've put in the hard yards to actually improve the breed.

Me too.

Me three.

And kudos to the brave owner who would well be feeling as though she is swimming against the tide on her lonesome at the moment.

[Erny]

Your post (#41) is very interesting, Shortstep. So it seems that docking was not initially introduced for anything related to safety of the working dog; advantageous to the working dog; at all.

Where did that info come from?

Edited March 7, 2011 by Erny

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Your post (#41) is very interesting, Shortstep. So it seems that docking was not initially introduced for anything related to safety of the working dog; advantageous to the working dog; at all.

Where did that info come from?

In the UK centuries ago, the powers to be introduced a window/glass tax. So when houses were built they had tiny little windows and not many of them.

Many large country estate house owners bricked up their windows to avoid the tax.

Many things were done for specific reasons but we have often forgotten why it was done in the beginning

efs

Edited March 7, 2011 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[shortstep]

Your post (#41) is very interesting, Shortstep. So it seems that docking was not initially introduced for anything related to safety of the working dog; advantageous to the working dog; at all.

Where did that info come from?

I have no idea, this is just what I was told some years ago about the word curtail and dogs, I think it was the gal who runs the border collie museum (not sure about that), and I just searched it again today to make sure before posted it.

Here is the site I looked at today, but heaps of sites come up if you search Cur Tail docking England.

During one period around the 10th century peasants were only allowed to keep small dogs for the destruction of vermin. Hired keepers, shepherds and herdsmen were also allowed to keep their dogs, but all dogs were required to be mutilated in some way to prevent poaching of the royal game. Some of these mutilations were quite severe (usually to the feet), but the herdsman's dog was required only to have his tail docked, or cur-tailed, so as not to interfere with his working ability. The people tried to evade this law, but penalties were severe and the monies from these fines were a welcome source of revenue to the crown. When these laws became unworkable, the crown then levied a tax on dogs. Realizing that the peasants could not pay these taxes, nor could they live without the help of a dog for certain tasks, an exemption from tax for dogs used for a purpose was provided. The shepherd or herdsman's dog was still exempt from this tax if his tail was docked. This interesting history is often put forward as to why the Pem has a docked tail, but these laws dealt more with the English Forest laws than with the Welsh. Since much truth is often found in legend, it is also told that the Pem was docked so as not to confuse it with the fox. The most probable reason for docking Pems is that the Pembroke had a naturally occurring bob-tail and since many pups in a litter would be born with natural bobtails, the others were docked, as well, for the sake of uniformity. This bobtail gene is being specifically bred for again, especially in the United Kingdom and also in the Scandinavian countries where docking has been banned by the government. (Please note: docking has NOT been banned in the UK! Docking may be done by a licensed veterinarian in that country.)

http://www.pwccwr.org/pembrokehistory.html

[Erny]

Here is the site I looked at today, but heaps of sites come up if you search Cur Tail docking England.

Thanks for putting that up.

During one period around the 10th century peasants were only allowed to keep small dogs for the destruction of vermin. Hired keepers, shepherds and herdsmen were also allowed to keep their dogs, but all dogs were required to be mutilated in some way to prevent poaching of the royal game. Some of these mutilations were quite severe (usually to the feet), but the herdsman's dog was required only to have his tail docked, or cur-tailed, so as not to interfere with his working ability.

I'm curious about this (highlighted by me) part. I understand (note : definitely don't agree with it) the mutilation of dog's feet to prevent them being used to poach royal game. I also understand why they'd have to agree to not enforce this on dogs used for shepherding etc. But how would docking a dog stop those dogs poaching royal game? Or would it simple be something about making the dogs more identifiable?

Anyone know?

NB: Apologies to the OP for going OT but this is quite interesting.

[shortstep]

Here is the site I looked at today, but heaps of sites come up if you search Cur Tail docking England.

Thanks for putting that up.

During one period around the 10th century peasants were only allowed to keep small dogs for the destruction of vermin. Hired keepers, shepherds and herdsmen were also allowed to keep their dogs, but all dogs were required to be mutilated in some way to prevent poaching of the royal game. Some of these mutilations were quite severe (usually to the feet), but the herdsman's dog was required only to have his tail docked, or cur-tailed, so as not to interfere with his working ability.

I'm curious about this (highlighted by me) part. I understand (note : definitely don't agree with it) the mutilation of dog's feet to prevent them being used to poach royal game. I also understand why they'd have to agree to not enforce this on dogs used for shepherding etc. But how would docking a dog stop those dogs poaching royal game? Or would it simple be something about making the dogs more identifiable?

Anyone know?

NB: Apologies to the OP for going OT but this is quite interesting.

So they stood out and were in effect also curtailed in their activites?

You might find something on this site. Lot of old stuff about dogs, herding, lurchers and curs.

She also used to publish a magazine about dog lore, The Shepherds Dogge, you could email her and see if she has information about it.

I just have it in the back of my mind it was some where in her stuff I first saw it. But I could be wrong.

http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/index.html

Edited March 7, 2011 by shortstep

[perrin]

I think it is a great idea and definitely worth a shot at improving.

If they try it and it fails then at least they have given it a go.

[Sheridan]

Appropriate word of the day.

Curtail

To cut short.

We should curtail our visit and return home.

Cur is an engish word that means dog, a working dog and usually depicted with a docked or bob tail in art work from the time.

During the 10th century people could keep dogs but they had to be mutilated to they could not steel game from the royals.

For small dogs they would have their feet mutilated. Livestock dogs would have their tails docked.

They docked the tail as this would not interfere with their ability to work.

Docking was known as Curtailing, to cut short the tail.

Later they applied taxes to dog ownership, but curtailed dogs owned by farmers were exempt.

I thought I read this history of docking was also true for gun and hunting dogs but could not find that said today. Perhaps someone else knows.

The dog tail tax.

[Staranais]

Sensationalist reporting, but isn't it always?

The concept - that of introducing a pointer into the dalmation gene pool & then backcrossing until you have dogs that are almost entirely dalmation but with a few desirable pointer genes - seems very sensible to me.

[Souff]

So they stood out and were in effect also curtailed in their activites?

And no doubt the owners of dogs with naturally short tails took a kick too.

Wish we could curtail the activities of the shortsighted in this world, including politicians and narrow minded dog owners who cant see that improvements to a breed can help the dogs as a whole. Unfortunately Jemima cant be curtailed, she just loves the limelight too much.

Souff

[sas]

I've read about Fiona's history and I think her Breeder is certainly on top of their game.

It's similar to opening the stud book i.e. Boxer vs Corgi wasn't it?

In this case Fiona's Pointer history is indeed for the 'betterment' of the breed, she looks like a Dalmatian and she's many generations a dalmatian.

Breeders in my opinion of Dallie's should welcome what she brings to the breed.....better health.

I'd be more than happy to show and own a Great Dane with cross bred history that looks like a Dane and is a Dane via many generations if it was for the betterment of the breed.

[OSoSwift]

This does interest me as in the livestock world after the 4th generation the animal is regarded as pure. We have some F4 Wiltshire sheep and they look and act like pure Wiltshires however the sheep will not be regarded as pure until the next generation.

Interesting that after 12 generations in a dog it is still not regarded as pure.

While I don't agree with wily nily crossing I think something like this that is done under the strictest controls is not a bad thing.

Would I like it to happen to Whippets, nope probably not BUT in breeds where there are certain issues that are life threatening and could be eliminated or at least controlled by this I don't think it's all bad.

Doing what they did with the Boxer however I do not agree with and believe they could have used their knowledge to bring in something that helped the longterm health of the breed.

[Diva]

Sensationalist reporting, but isn't it always?

The concept - that of introducing a pointer into the dalmation gene pool & then backcrossing until you have dogs that are almost entirely dalmation but with a few desirable pointer genes - seems very sensible to me.

Me too. It was done thoughtfully to address a serious health issue in the breed, and the cross breeding was very limited.

In any group of people some will be very resistent to any change to the status quo, but I'd be suprised if most breeders thought something done this carefully and with such a good reason is wrong.

[Jed]

Erny

Your post (#41) is very interesting, Shortstep. So it seems that docking was not initially introduced for anything related to safety of the working dog; advantageous to the working dog; at all.

Over the next 9 centuries, more breeds were developed world wide. Some were docked, some were not. I have no idea what happened to this tax, but dogs seemed to have been docked depending on the work they did, as well as the set and carriage of the tail - for safety reasons.

eg - Earthdogs - JRT were docked, and dacshunds were not. JRT were docked because once in the burrow, they would wag their tail furiously when they saw or smelled the game. As their tail was carried aloft, they could bring the burrow down on top of themselves.

Although dacshunds were developed with bone, feet, legs and keel to enable digging in badger setts, the tails were not docked. The dacshund carries his tail behind him, beneath the level of his back, and no matter how excited, will not carry it over his back, so he is not likely to bring the earth down on him.

I don't know many people with dalmations,but the ones I know seem to think it is a good idea. I think the paper simply used someone who disapproved, to make a good story.

[shortstep]

Hey you guys, I did not say this was how docking got started.

All I was saying was this was what the word 'curtail' originally meant, to cut short the tail of a cur.

For all I know the first time a dog had his tail docked was back in the cave.

Maybe they wanted it to hang off their Mammoth skin hat so they could look like Davy Crockett.

Just like in America.

Edited March 8, 2011 by shortstep

[Sheridan]

Hey you guys, I did not say this was how docking got started.

All I was saying was this was what the word 'curtail' originally meant, to cut short the tail of a cur.

For all I know the first time a dog had his tail docked was back in the cave.

Maybe they wanted it to hang off their Mammoth skin hat so they could look like Davy Crockett.

Just like in America.

I believe there was actually a dog tail tax in England, introduced at the same time as the wig tax. Fundraiser for the Napoleanic wars.

[Jed]

I think everyone is right - I remember hearing of the taxes too. Just didn't want people to think owners mindlessly docked their dogs over 9 centuries!!