'impure' Dalmatian Angers Traditionalists At The Elite Pedigre

[shortstep]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13...e-dog-show.html

Fiona the mongrel and a spot of bother at Crufts: 'Impure' dalmatian angers traditionalists at the elite pedigree dog show

By Valerie Elliott

Last updated at 11:39 AM on 6th March 2011

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For 120 years Crufts has been the premier show for the world’s pedigree dogs. Now for the first time a mongrel is to compete – and not everyone is delighted at the prospect.

Fiona, a three-year-old dalmatian, is in training to take the title as best in her breed this week. But there is resentment because she is a crossbreed, descended from a dalmatian and a pointer.

As far as some traditionalists are concerned Fiona, who has brown spots instead of black, is ‘impure’ and should not be allowed in the show ring.

Cross-breed: Fiona, pictured on the left, is descended from a dalmatian and a pointer

Paul Heaton, a dalmatian breeder from Liversedge, West Yorkshire, said: ‘It is pretty unethical to allow this dog in a pedigree show. As far as I’m concerned it is an illegal entrant and makes a mockery of the dalmatian breed.

‘This is a dog that is not pure-bred. This is a mongrel. You can’t cross a dalmatian with a pointer and say it’s a dalmatian. This is unethical and I’d be disgusted if the dog won.’ Anne Harcraft, a breeder from Sheffield, agreed.

'The dog is unpure and I do not think it should be shown with pedigrees,’ she said. ‘I would be really miffed if it won.’

Unlike the other 18,600 pedigree dalmatians in Britain, Fiona carries a gene from the Pointer which protects her from a life-threatening condition.

After many months of wrangling, and to the dismay of many dalmatian breeders in the country, The Kennel Club declared that Fiona could be registered as a pedigree because she can bring health benefits to future generations of dalmatians

in Britain.

Dotty determination: Fiona, second dog from the right, with owner Julie Evans, right, her daughter and their other dogs Dynamite, Disco and Molly

Fiona, who competes under the show name Grand Champion Fiacre’s First and Foremost, has won a number of regional competitions.

She has also shown such movement and agility in the preliminary heats that her owner, Julie Evans, from Barmouth, North-West Wales, believes she is in with a strong chance to win the coveted breed title at Crufts.

Mrs Evans, who has bred dalmatians for 30 years, imported the dog from Nevada, in the US, last summer. She has been concerned for many years about the health problems which afflict British dalmatians as they carry a mutant gene which makes them prone to a potentially fatal chemical imbalance that affects the urinary system.

By getting permission from The Kennel Club to import and breed she hopes that Fiona will be able to mother puppies with a wider gene pool that can rid the breed of this problem.

Mrs Evans said: ‘My efforts have been unpopular. Breeders and clubs don’t want impure dogs and they see this genetic modification as interfering with the breed. It is interfering, but it is to introduce a healthy gene. I hope one day I can persuade them it is the right thing to do.’

The Kennel Club said it was committed ‘to consider applications to register dogs from out-crossings and inter-variety matings if it is felt that to do so may present potential health and welfare benefits’.

The Club has taken tough action to promote healthy dog breeding since the furore over the 2008 BBC documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which highlighted the breeding of dogs with deformities and disease.

Jemima Harrison, producer of the programme, said last night: ‘It is astonishing but true that the majority of breeders would rather have sick dogs than allow a single drop of foreign blood to taint their breeds

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13...l#ixzz1FpksE1zY

[rastus_froggy]

Hmmm... interesting, I think this wil be a good thread to keep an eye on.

[corvus]

If it looks and acts enough like a Dalmatian to win Dalmation conformation awards, then it's a Dalmatian.

[gillbear]

more info: http://www.luadalmatians.com/

[stormie]

I say well done to them. They've put in the hard yards to actually improve the breed.

[Steve]

I say well done to them. They've put in the hard yards to actually improve the breed.

Me too.

[shortstep]

more info: http://www.luadalmatians.com/

This is a good link with lots of information.

Like this

Current Descendants of the Dalmatian Pointer Cross are at the 12th generation. In the 12th generation, the Pointer is one of 4,096 dogs, thereby contributing 0.0244% of the genetic material in that generation to the next generation - the 11th generation. From the perspective of the entire 12-generation pedigree, the Pointer is one of 8,190 dogs and contributes 0.0122% of the genetic material to the progeny. These percentages appear miniscule when framed in comparison to the sire and the dam of a litter that each contributes 50% of their genetic material to their get.

[Steve]

more info: http://www.luadalmatians.com/

This is a good link with lots of information.

Like this

Current Descendants of the Dalmatian Pointer Cross are at the 12th generation. In the 12th generation, the Pointer is one of 4,096 dogs, thereby contributing 0.0244% of the genetic material in that generation to the next generation - the 11th generation. From the perspective of the entire 12-generation pedigree, the Pointer is one of 8,190 dogs and contributes 0.0122% of the genetic material to the progeny. These percentages appear miniscule when framed in comparison to the sire and the dam of a litter that each contributes 50% of their genetic material to their get.

They are the same about the bob tailed boxer .they are up to about 12 generations just here in Australia but they still carry on about them being mongrels.

Mongrel dogs or ignorant dog breeders?

Edited March 6, 2011 by Steve

[shortstep]

They are the same about the bob tailed boxer .they are up to about 12 generations just here in Australia but they still carry on about them being mongrels.

Mongrel dogs or ignorant dog breeders?

The purity issue I think is not valid.

However with bobtail gene I am a little confused.

Right off I think the docking laws are not right and should be changed, there could be some laws about how and who and when tails can be docked to asure proper treatment, but it should be legal and this law will only lead to all sorts of bads things.

Back to bob tail gene.

I was under the impression that it is an incompete dominat gene, another words only one copy of the gene is required to have a bob tailed dog.

However homozygous dogs (dogs with 2 genes for bob tail) will not survive and die prior to birth.

So you should always breed a bob tail dog to a dog with a tail, andnever breed two bob tail dogs together to prevent this from happening???

This means that you can never have a total population of bob tails.

So you are breeding in a trait that cannot be maintained in the whole population?? As only half of every litter would be a bob.

If you could get half the population with the gene and half with out, it would mean that 50% of all dogs are not avialable to their same 50% dog of the population, this cannot be a good way to breed dogs. Maybe it is??

Further I do not understand why you need to DNA test for the gene?

If the dog has the gene it would have a bob tail and if it has a tail then it does not have the gene, correct? so why test or where I am confused?

Taken from http://www.animalnetwork.com.au/tests/index.php?testid=14

Severity - 1

NBT has a low degree of severity, as the trait itself poses no health concerns. However in the case of a homozygous dominant dog, the allele becomes lethal in the embryonic stage and the affected dog does not survive.

Symptoms

While a shortened tail has no pressing health concerns, and the gene mutation doesn’t appear to affect any other aspect of the dog’s health, breeding NBT dogs can be high risk. Natural Bob Tail is a dominant trait, that is a dog only requires a single copy of the NBT gene in order to express the trait. The problem arises when a dog is homozygous for the dominant gene, that is, they have two copies of the NBT causing gene. When a homozygous dominant occurs, the gene becomes lethal and the affected pup dies. Death of the homozygous affected dogs usually occurs in the embryonic stage, this usually accounts for small litter sizes among NBT’s being bred, as the homozygous pups do not survive.

Genetic Testing

Animal Network provides a DNA test that determines the genetic predisposition to NBT.

As NBT is a dominant trait, a single copy is required in order for a dog to be affected. There are no carriers of a dominant trait, clear dogs possess no copies of the NBT gene, while affects have one copy. A dog with two copies of the NBT gene will not survive.

Due to the autosomal dominant nature of the Natural Bob Tail (NBT) condition, it is advised that if breeding is to occur, dogs be tested in order to prevent the homozygous lethal allele occurring in pups.

Edited March 6, 2011 by shortstep

[Steve]

Hard to see the valid argument when the same thing occurs in hairless X 2 dogs, harlequins X 2 etc.

Either way however, that is a completely different argument to that which has been used with the Dal and with the bob tailed boxer - that they are not pure.

[shortstep]

Hard to see the valid argument when the same thing occurs in hairless X 2 dogs, harlequins X 2 etc.

Either way however, that is a completely different argument to that which has been used with the Dal and with the bob tailed boxer - that they are not pure.

Oh yes the purity issue is totally seperate and as far as I am concerned if a health problem that cannot be solved other ways, can be solved using a single cross breeding and is done under close control and planning, then this should at least be an option for breeders. Breeders can always choose not to use the dog that are free of the disease. However as a buyer I will be shopping for the dog without the disease and this may by why both sides can not agree to disagree and let both sides do what they beleive is in the best interest of their puppies adn the breed. If that made sense.

Besides it is only a matter of time that there will be enough pressure to breed health dogs wne possible and I am sure if the breeders refuse, the next thing will will find is the goverement wil make it illegal to bred a dog with the disease. It is always better to direct and lead change rather then have it thrust upon you.

Back to yoru comments about Harleqines, they do not make up 50% of the population of the breed, in other words there are some Hars but they can be breed to any of the other colours?? in the breed so there is still a large selection of dogs to pick from.

Hairless is another topic and another group of problems all together isn't it.

Just wanted to add, that in any breeding plan be it a one time cross or DNA testing or what have you, everything will have to be considered. So it may be appropriate to do a cross bred to take out a a disease, it may not be appropriate to do a cross for some other goal.

Edited March 6, 2011 by shortstep

[Jed]

Very inflammatory reporting imho. "Brown spots instead of black" -- I ask you? And Jemima never misses an opportunity.

Maybe

Fiona, who competes under the show name Grand Champion Fiacre’s First and Foremost

is part of the problem? I didn't think UK had Gr Ch, but I haven't taken much notice.

There are breeders who think this is a great idea, others who think the dogs are not pure, and would not have one. Diversity , I guess.

Breeders who are not in favour of NBT boxers have asked the CCs to notate the pedigrees with NBT so they do not accidentally introduce Corgi into their lines ... the rationale is that some generations on, they may not otherwise know whether the ancestors are NBT or not.

I don't see the introduction of genes into either boxers or dalmations as a problem. If breeders want to avoid these genes, they can simply go to another line which is not problematic in their opinion.

Inflammatory media reporting with Jemima Harrison jabbing the mixmaster in at full force, exacerbates the division, and indeed, makes it seem worse than it is.

I wouldn't use some lines under any circumstances - because I would introduce a feature which I do not want in my dogs.

I don't see any difference with Dalmations and boxers .... some will, some wont. Do those who disagree fully understand genetics? I have no idea, but it is their choice for whatever their reasons.

[shortstep]

Very inflammatory reporting imho. "Brown spots instead of black" -- I ask you? And Jemima never misses an opportunity.

Maybe

Fiona, who competes under the show name Grand Champion Fiacre’s First and Foremost

is part of the problem? I didn't think UK had Gr Ch, but I haven't taken much notice.

There are breeders who think this is a great idea, others who think the dogs are not pure, and would not have one. Diversity , I guess.

Breeders who are not in favour of NBT boxers have asked the CCs to notate the pedigrees with NBT so they do not accidentally introduce Corgi into their lines ... the rationale is that some generations on, they may not otherwise know whether the ancestors are NBT or not.

I don't see the introduction of genes into either boxers or dalmations as a problem. If breeders want to avoid these genes, they can simply go to another line which is not problematic in their opinion.

Inflammatory media reporting with Jemima Harrison jabbing the mixmaster in at full force, exacerbates the division, and indeed, makes it seem worse than it is.

I wouldn't use some lines under any circumstances - because I would introduce a feature which I do not want in my dogs.

I don't see any difference with Dalmations and boxers .... some will, some wont. Do those who disagree fully understand genetics? I have no idea, but it is their choice for whatever their reasons.

I agree with what yo have said Jed, but as long as there is this refusal to allow the dogs to be used, then it will keep coming up and it will keep making kennedl club breeders look as if they do not care.

Can you explain the breeding of Bob tail boxers to me and about the DNA testing as presented in my prior post? As I really do not understand why you need to test.

Edited March 6, 2011 by shortstep

[Steve]

Hard to see the valid argument when the same thing occurs in hairless X 2 dogs, harlequins X 2 etc.

Either way however, that is a completely different argument to that which has been used with the Dal and with the bob tailed boxer - that they are not pure.

Oh yes the purity issue is totally seperate and as far as I am concerned if a health problem that cannot be solved other ways, can be solved using a single cross breeding and is done under close control and planning, then this should at least be an option for breeders. Breeders can always choose not to use the dog that are free of the disease. However as a buyer I will be shopping for the dog without the disease and this may by why both sides can not agree to disagree and let both sides do what they beleive is in the best interest of their puppies adn the breed. If that made sense.

Besides it is only a matter of time that there will be enough pressure to breed health dogs wne possible and I am sure if the breeders refuse, the next thing will will find is the goverement wil make it illegal to bred a dog with the disease. It is always better to direct and lead change rather then have it thrust upon you.

Back to yoru comments about Harleqines, they do not make up 50% of the population of the breed, in other words there are some Hars but they can be breed to any of the other colours?? in the breed so there is still a large selection of dogs to pick from.

Hairless is another topic and another group of problems all together isn't it.

Just wanted to add, that in any breeding plan be it a one time cross or DNA testing or what have you, everything will have to be considered. So it may be appropriate to do a cross bred to take out a a disease, it may not be appropriate to do a cross for some other goal.

Yes but the bob tail doesnt make up the entire breed either in other words there are some bobtails but they can breed to any other so there is still a large selection to choose from.

The issue isnt what is happening now and how you can avoid XYZ now its when you have a situation as you now have with the bobtailed boxer - you cant see if there is a corgi in there 14 generations ago because after 4 or 5 generations they drop off the pedigree even if you knew what you were looking for.

Years ago I was breeding ragdoll cats and some breders decided the gene pool was limited and they wanted new colours and patterns so the cat mob gave them approval to do inter breedings. I didnt go on it much not because of the argument that they werent pure but because back then ragggies were pretty bombproof. Mine were really healthy and having 8 a litter - there was no big deal genetic issues I had to be concerned about in my breeding program. Some of the breeds they were using to widen the gene pool had lots of known genetic issues which no one was interested in knowing about or identifying if the cats they were using to have prettier colours carried or were affected by these genetic conditions. I held out - only bred cats from old lines for a couple of years but most others embraced it so unless I only bred my own cats and never bought in a new one from anywhere I was going to have those cat's in the back ground somewhere. You cant identify them by prefix because they were breeding both and today - about 10 years later trying to find a purebred Ragdoll cat which didnt have something of another breed in there would be impossible.

With NBT boxers now being up to 20 or so generations you can test for that gene but thats only one gene and it hasnt been recoded on the pedigrees anyway so the chances of a breeder being able to identify whether or not they are breeding a dog which somewhere back all those generations ago was a corgi is whats upsetting them.

I dont want to get into why some breeders felt it was in the best interests of the breed to have some boxers without tails or whether thats a good or bad thing but clearly with the Dals its a good thing - to my way of thinking. It enables the breed to continue with out having to suffer - but its still the same argument - that somehwere back there for now and as time goes on - forever their entire breed is tainted by a mongrel. Even after 10 or so generations thats still how they see it even though a new breed only needs 5.

[Jed]

Shortstep

As I really do not understand why you need to test.

So Animal Network has a better balance sheet?

I think that is a lot of codswallop.

It's a dominant gene, why would anyone (except cretins) be breeding to produce a lethal homozygous gene?

www.steynmere.com

[Steve]

So the RSPCA cant say you docked them.

[felix]

Few things really.

I don't know much about the dalmatians, but I can't believe there are no lines anywhere in the world without those mutant genes. If they exist, why not use these instead of another breed?

Second, where do you put the line. If breeders are allowed to use whatever other breed they want, where it will end? To be honest this dog looks every bit dalmatian to me, but again I am no expert.

Last, I thought that brown spots are allowed in dalmatian standard.

[Jed]

Shortstep, I read what you wrote more carefully. I don't think a dog can carry two genes for bobtail.

Agree with Felix, but none of these outcrosses are done without full permission from the controlling body.

And yes, brown (liver) spots are acceptable, bit of dodgy reporting.

And shortstep, problem is that these articles in the paper - most of which Jemima engineers - do absolutely no good for purebred dogs at all. Whether they are true or not is unimportant - as whether PDE was true or not is important. And it is more difficult to refute the blurry allegations made in the article than to refute the truth.

So what if some breeders don't like it? It is not important. If they ALL went one way, there would be media articles about the reducting of the gene pool blah blah.

So there is no winning, is there?

[The Spotted Devil]

Few things really.

I don't know much about the dalmatians, but I can't believe there are no lines anywhere in the world without those mutant genes. If they exist, why not use these instead of another breed?

Second, where do you put the line. If breeders are allowed to use whatever other breed they want, where it will end? To be honest this dog looks every bit dalmatian to me, but again I am no expert.

Last, I thought that brown spots are allowed in dalmatian standard.

Every purebred Dalmatian world wide has the same peculiar gene.

Yes, liver is allowed. Perhaps they meant it had black and liver spots?

[mita]

And shortstep, problem is that these articles in the paper - most of which Jemima engineers - do absolutely no good for purebred dogs at all. Whether they are true or not is unimportant - as whether PDE was true or not is important. And it is more difficult to refute the blurry allegations made in the article than to refute the truth.

Couldn't agree more.