Dogs Nsw Supporting And Profiting From Breed Bans

[mikebailey]

It seems obvious that you can't identify the component breeds of a mixed breed dog just by looking at it.

Dogs NSW claim that not only can they do it, they can teach you in 2 days for just $500!

I'm preparing a story on their support for a system that kills family dogs with no complaint against them but their looks.

I'm expecting them to respond to my questions later this week.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had their dog 'Breed Assessed' by Dogs NSW or has other information about their training course.

thanks,

Mike

[geo]

It seems obvious that you can't identify the component breeds of a mixed breed dog just by looking at it.

Dogs NSW claim that not only can they do it, they can teach you in 2 days for just $500!

I'm preparing a story on their support for a system that kills family dogs with no complaint against them but their looks.

I'm expecting them to respond to my questions later this week.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had their dog 'Breed Assessed' by Dogs NSW or has other information about their training course.

thanks,

Mike

OMG, thanks for posting, let us know how they answer.

[Keira&Phoenix]

It seems obvious that you can't identify the component breeds of a mixed breed dog just by looking at it.

Dogs NSW claim that not only can they do it, they can teach you in 2 days for just $500!

I'm preparing a story on their support for a system that kills family dogs with no complaint against them but their looks.

I'm expecting them to respond to my questions later this week.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had their dog 'Breed Assessed' by Dogs NSW or has other information about their training course.

thanks,

Mike

That's horrendous. Its all about the $$$'s. As already mentioned, thanks for posting and let us know what the response is.

[Janba]

Breed workshops

DOGS NSW has developed a two-day training program to assist councils in improving breed identification, a skill which is now a legal requirement of local councils

Picture7Picture1

Recent amendments to the NSW Companion Animals Act, requires Local Councils and their employees to correctly identify dog breeds and crosses. There are over 187 recognised breeds currently in Australia and a multitude of cross breeds, therefore identification can be difficult and at times impossible.

However state legislation requires that council staff identify those dogs that are on the restricted breeds list and crosses from restricted breeds. Also councils are required to identify dogs specifically used or kept for hunting purposes as opposed to being a family pet.

Why is DOGS NSW offering to help?

DOGS NSW is a strong supporter of the NSW Government changes to the Companion Animals Act. We believe in responsible dog ownership and we recognise that proper breed identification is an essential part of the current legislation.

We have developed a 2 day training program to assist councils in improving breed identification. DOGS NSW invites Animal Control Officers, Council Rangers, Veterinary Nurses and indeed anyone interested in improving their ability identifying individual breeds of dogs to a 2 day workshop.

Canine Breed Identification Course

2011 Workshops:

Dates still to be advised.

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Where: DOGS NSW Amenities Building The Bill Spilstead Complex for Canine Affairs 44 Luddenham Road, Erskine Park NSW 2759 


Course Cost: $550 GST inclusive Includes Morning Tea and Lunch.

To enrol: Enquiries to Kerry Christofi at DOGS NSW PO Box 632, St. Marys NSW 1790 Ph: 02 9834 0217 Email: [email protected] e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it

Limited placements available. Enrol early to avoid disappointment.

Please ask us about accommodation for country and interstate attendees.

Course Content

Day 1

* Overview of recognised breeds

* How to identify individual breeds

* Breed characteristics and temperaments

Day 2

* Discussion and identification of Hunting Breeds and crosses.

* Insight into Temperament Testing.

* In depth study on Bull Breeds, i.e. Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier and Pit Bull plus Pit Bull crosses.

* Workshops on breed identification.

At the end of the Course attendees will have:

* Received training and the physical resources needed to improve their ability to identify individual dog breeds and crosses.

* An understanding of the breed characteristics and temperaments of dog breeds in particular the Bull Breeds.

* The ability to identify the cross breeds currently used for hunting.

Guest speakers include some of the most knowledgable and experienced members of the NSW Dog world, including all breed judges, Terrier Breed Specialists and breed club representatives.

The two day workshop will be conducted by:
Diana Fenton MRACI C.Chem. M. Ed. B.VET Australian National Kennel Council licensed All Breeds & International Judge.

[geo]

So the AKNC are supporting this by having one of their own judges there?

It's no surprise though, and I bet they will certainly be mentioning the difference between a papered AST and the illegal unpapered AST or pitbull as it is now commonly known.

This is playing into the AKNC's hands that the only safe dog will be one registered with them, and the fact that some of their memebers believe that a an AKNC dog will not attack anyone..

I'm not disputing the ladies ability, but more the politics surrounding this sort of training.

This makes me sick, 2 dog groups giving their backing to BSL.

[mikebailey]

I'm not disputing the ladies ability, but more the politics surrounding this sort of training.

I am.

I don't believe Diana Fenton (ANKC judge and creator of the 'Course in Breed Identification') can reliably identify whether a dog has APBT in it from visual identification.

Further to that, I think Dogs NSW claiming their course enables people to make anything other than a guess at a dogs breed would be dishonest.

Let's wait to hear what Dogs NSW come back with. The questions I posed to them (tol be discussed at Committee tomorrow night) are:

1. What is Dogs NSW position on BSL?

2. Is your "Course In Breed Identification" scientifically validated?

The Australian Veterinary Association points out that

"The biggest problem is determining whether an animal is actually a Pit Bull or Pit Bull cross, or whether it is a cross involving other breeds"

- Bill Harkin, Victorian Division President

Dogs NSW has sought national accreditation for it's "Course in Canine Breed Identification" which it actively promotes as assisting with identification of Restricted Breed Dogs such as the American Pit Bull Terrier.

Do you dispute the assertion that there is no scientifically validated methodology or process for determining the genetic history of a dog from its physical characteristics or that the observation of the physical features of a dog of unknown breeding cannot provide reliable or certain evidence of its actual breed or breed components?

Can you provide any evidence that your "Course in Canine Breed Identification" enables students to identify breed with any reliability or certainty? What is the probability of a false negative? What is the probability of a false positive?

3. How are course attendees assessed?

Given that a false positive may result in an owners dog being destroyed, how does your "Course in Canine Breed Identification" assess students ability to perform accurate breed identification?

4. NSW Approved Breed Assessors

Dog owners who receive a "Notice of Intention to declare dog to be a restricted dog" are also provided with a secret list of "NSW Approved Breed Assessors" who offer a "statement of breed assessment" under section 58C of the Act. Under the Act, dogs they assess as being American Pit Bull Terriers are then removed from their owners and kill. Why do Dogs NSW judges choose provide this paid service? Is there any evidence that their assessments are anything more than "educated guesses"?

[RottnBullies]

Wonderful!! ANKC gets $500 and anyone can then pretty much give a death sentence to a dog ;)

This Is beyond sick :D

Again protecting THEIR own, well ffs If they don't want to do anything to help BSL victims why don't they just stay the hell out of It!

[Janba]

I am going to ask a question

How many of the people who criticise the ANKC/ DogsNSW etc in regards to BSL are members? The ANKC and state CCs are not a goverment bodies but a societies made up and run by its members. If you don't like what they do join and become active and change how it is run.

I am against BSL and don't necessarily agree with what DogsNSW is saying but I also don't expect any club/society etc to go to bat for people who don't belong to it when those people only criticise them.

[geo]

I'm not disputing the ladies ability, but more the politics surrounding this sort of training.

I am.

I don't believe Diana Fenton (ANKC judge and creator of the 'Course in Breed Identification') can reliably identify whether a dog has APBT in it from visual identification.

Further to that, I think Dogs NSW claiming their course enables people to make anything other than a guess at a dogs breed would be dishonest.

Let's wait to hear what Dogs NSW come back with. The questions I posed to them (tol be discussed at Committee tomorrow night) are:

1. What is Dogs NSW position on BSL?

2. Is your "Course In Breed Identification" scientifically validated?

The Australian Veterinary Association points out that

"The biggest problem is determining whether an animal is actually a Pit Bull or Pit Bull cross, or whether it is a cross involving other breeds"

- Bill Harkin, Victorian Division President

Dogs NSW has sought national accreditation for it's "Course in Canine Breed Identification" which it actively promotes as assisting with identification of Restricted Breed Dogs such as the American Pit Bull Terrier.

Do you dispute the assertion that there is no scientifically validated methodology or process for determining the genetic history of a dog from its physical characteristics or that the observation of the physical features of a dog of unknown breeding cannot provide reliable or certain evidence of its actual breed or breed components?

Can you provide any evidence that your "Course in Canine Breed Identification" enables students to identify breed with any reliability or certainty? What is the probability of a false negative? What is the probability of a false positive?

3. How are course attendees assessed?

Given that a false positive may result in an owners dog being destroyed, how does your "Course in Canine Breed Identification" assess students ability to perform accurate breed identification?

4. NSW Approved Breed Assessors

Dog owners who receive a "Notice of Intention to declare dog to be a restricted dog" are also provided with a secret list of "NSW Approved Breed Assessors" who offer a "statement of breed assessment" under section 58C of the Act. Under the Act, dogs they assess as being American Pit Bull Terriers are then removed from their owners and kill. Why do Dogs NSW judges choose provide this paid service? Is there any evidence that their assessments are anything more than "educated guesses"?

Sorry Mike, I didn't realise that an AKNC person had created it, what a coincidence that it would serve their own purpose! I guess this follows on from the Chivers case where the judge deemed no-one is an expert.

So basically they say they're expert enough to ID pitbulls, then say the only security is AKNC registration and further protects their own. They tied up QLD by getting the legislation changed to save their own amstaffs, now they're after NSW and want to put another nail in the coffin of any dog that looks like a restricted breed!

They are no better than Deborah Pomeroy (i think that was her name), perhaps they have her 22 point checlklist!

Thank you for putting these people under the spotlight instead of them conducting their back room negotiations.

[Roguedog]

I am going to ask a question

How many of the people who criticise the ANKC/ DogsNSW etc in regards to BSL are members? The ANKC and state CCs are not a goverment bodies but a societies made up and run by its members. If you don't like what they do join and become active and change how it is run.

I am against BSL and don't necessarily agree with what DogsNSW is saying but I also don't expect any club/society etc to go to bat for people who don't belong to it when those people only criticise them.

I am a member and im very peeved to find out about this!!!!! not impressed DogsNSW!!!

[RottnBullies]

If 'They' don't want to go Into bat for BSL victims well that's just fine, but please why make things worse for all the unfortunate dogs who are not registered with them??

And on the same token even make a profit out of a already very depressing situation, I'm sorry but that just don't sit right with me and I'm sure many others too

I am going to ask a question

How many of the people who criticise the ANKC/ DogsNSW etc in regards to BSL are members? The ANKC and state CCs are not a goverment bodies but a societies made up and run by its members. If you don't like what they do join and become active and change how it is run.

I am against BSL and don't necessarily agree with what DogsNSW is saying but I also don't expect any club/society etc to go to bat for people who don't belong to it when those people only criticise them.

[geo]

I am going to ask a question

How many of the people who criticise the ANKC/ DogsNSW etc in regards to BSL are members? The ANKC and state CCs are not a goverment bodies but a societies made up and run by its members. If you don't like what they do join and become active and change how it is run.

I am against BSL and don't necessarily agree with what DogsNSW is saying but I also don't expect any club/society etc to go to bat for people who don't belong to it when those people only criticise them.

I don't know what the AKNC can provide to people without any interest in showing, breeding etc.. so that is why many people wouldn't join in the first instance. But I understand your point and perhaps a thousand people should join to oppose what they're doing, I'll certainly look into it.

I'm also dubious how much power the members hold when it comes to vito decisions made by the people at the top of the chain in the AKNC, would it be a case of we know best? and how many other AKNC members are going to stick their neck on the line and speak up?

I dare say there may be some happy AST/SBT breeders if this goes ahead.

[RottnBullies]

Exactly geo, how much Input can members have in something like this?? Were members even notified before they actually went ahead with It? Personally I don't think members had or have a say here

[Janba]

Exactly geo, how much Input can members have in something like this?? Were members even notified before they actually went ahead with It? Personally I don't think members had or have a say here

If they bothered to ask for and read the agenda for the board meetings and read the minutes of the board meeting the answer is probably yes.

[RottnBullies]

Maybe just maybe they may win themselves over a heap more meberships if they're seen not to be actively participating in helping further BSL In such a ways as there doing now

I won't be joining I have no Interest, but if they were fighting the good fight, I probably would .

And yes It may have been In the minutes but I still don't believe that the members alone could have stopped It

[mita]

mikebailey, your questions are excellent. And I agree with your comments, geo.

[Steve]

I am going to ask a question

How many of the people who criticise the ANKC/ DogsNSW etc in regards to BSL are members? The ANKC and state CCs are not a goverment bodies but a societies made up and run by its members. If you don't like what they do join and become active and change how it is run.

I am against BSL and don't necessarily agree with what DogsNSW is saying but I also don't expect any club/society etc to go to bat for people who don't belong to it when those people only criticise them.

So why the hell are they in there at all ? They dont recognise a pitty as a breed yet they can identify it and teach others how to identify it as a breed. Not to help their own members and their own members dogs. Shameful.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

Exactly geo, how much Input can members have in something like this?? Were members even notified before they actually went ahead with It? Personally I don't think members had or have a say here

Nor do I .

[Steve]

Why not tell the truth - that no one can tell what a dog is unless they have the parents DNA. They wont even judge another purebred against one of their members dogs because its not counted as a purebred of that breed unless its registered with them. Yet they go in to say they can judge a dog that isnt even a breed they recognise.

They could have made great in roads with anti BSL if they said no one can determine what a dogs parents are simply by looking at it.

[Janba]

Members can stop decisions by the ANKC as was done recently with some LRLs but done through the correct channels of the national breed council. BSL totally aside your talking about a non ANKC recognized breed and expecting the ANKC to fight when you provide no financial or other support. They are fightimng for their breeds and while it may prove to be the wrong way that is where their loyalty lies. What is needed is a non affiliated body to fight these fights.

People come on and say that no one can accurately recognise a pitbull or a pit bull cross. Maye there is therefore no such breed or you need to get people who you trust as assessors into the scheme. The requirement for council officers to identify bull and hunting breeds is not going to miraculously disappear overnight while NSW has its current regulations. The requirement for accurate identification goes beyond bull breeds - how often have you seen a ticked working border collie labelled as a ACD cross - more often than they are accurately identified.