blacklabrador Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 The US do have horrendous looking "field labs" who work beautifully in the field but are quite removed from the breed standard. My two US field labradors look horrendous? What is your experience observing or handling US field labradors, in any countries field bred lab? My experience is seeing countless online pictures of what is known as a "field bred labrador" in America. Some examples here. http://labtails.blogspot.com/ I don't need to handle them to know that they don't fit the breed standard. They probably retreive and work like demons, however they don't fit the breed standard and to someone who has spent some time observing and striving for a breed standard they look terrible. Whether your dogs fit the breed standard or not is not my concern. If you'd like an opinion on how they look then your local show will have a judge ready and willing to critique them. I have a labrador here who is from well known working lines in Australia. He is my heart dog, he has a wonderful working drive and would retrieve until his legs gave out. But he's a terrible example of a labrador and it took me 6 months of showing him (my first labrador) before I realised just how bad his conformation was. I still love him and he's a great old man to have around the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Yah, it cuts both ways. There are guns all over the place in the US, and a lot of people hunt birds. So there's lots of call for real gun dogs and field work is a reality for lots of US Labs. There are quite a few breeders who specialize in working labs and sell pups after training them the basics . . . from that perspective Australian standards have, in general, declined. The 'seen on the street' Lab here is lankier than the norm for Australia and has a narrower, triangular looking head. What I meant by 'deterioration' was that pictures of pups who don't even have Lab colouring can be advertized to the general public as Labs. There's 'standard' in the show ring . . . but also 'standard' in the everyday use of the word. You can find fine labs here as well . . . and pedigrees stemming from the same peripotent dogs as you find at the root of many of Australia's leading Labs. One thing that's surprised me here is the current craze for 'white' Labs. Some are stunning . .. . apparently Mary Rosylin-Williams, in Advanced Labrador Breeding (book) was premature in bemoaning the disappearance of the snow-white dog with strong black points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Surely if those dogs are best at what the breed is supposed to do, then it is the show labs that have deteriorated ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 The US do have horrendous looking "field labs" who work beautifully in the field but are quite removed from the breed standard. My two US field labradors look horrendous? What is your experience observing or handling US field labradors, in any countries field bred lab? My experience is seeing countless online pictures of what is known as a "field bred labrador" in America. Some examples here. http://labtails.blogspot.com/ I don't need to handle them to know that they don't fit the breed standard. They probably retreive and work like demons, however they don't fit the breed standard and to someone who has spent some time observing and striving for a breed standard they look terrible. Whether your dogs fit the breed standard or not is not my concern. If you'd like an opinion on how they look then your local show will have a judge ready and willing to critique them. I have a labrador here who is from well known working lines in Australia. He is my heart dog, he has a wonderful working drive and would retrieve until his legs gave out. But he's a terrible example of a labrador and it took me 6 months of showing him (my first labrador) before I realised just how bad his conformation was. I still love him and he's a great old man to have around the place. Wow they look totally different from what I expected. I have seen maybe 2 beautiful thin sleek and fit looking labs in my life, and I always just assumed the working ones would look like them. These ones in the link look fat to me lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Surely if those dogs are best at what the breed is supposed to do, then it is the show labs that have deteriorated ?? Would have thought the same thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I'm not big on the show ring . . . but things can get out of hand if there's no enforcement of standards. This is a set of puppy ads I found browsing the internet in the US awhile ago. I can't believe they're advertized as Labradors. But these dogs are not in the show ring. They are in advertisements. There is no way that breed standards can be enforced on sellers, except by canny buyers who know the breed standards. You wouldn't believe what some people THINK they own when they buy a puppy and part with a lot of money ..... and then along comes Souff and says something like, "the seller told you it was a WHAT!!!! ? " And until somebody educates our Dept of Fair Trading to know what purebred dogs really are, according to their breed standards, unscrupulous advertisers will continue to get away with fraud and puppy buyers will let them get away with it. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) The US do have horrendous looking "field labs" who work beautifully in the field but are quite removed from the breed standard. I am pretty sure I read that changes will be underway soon. That before a dog can be a field champion it will have to get a breed ring championship first. No thats wrong, it was the other way around, before a dog can get a show champion it has to have a field championship. Something about function can only follow form, no that is wrong too, it was the other way around, form can only follow function, yes that was it. I have no idea where these strange ideas come from. I just wish everybody would stop bagging each others dogs before we end up with laws that dictate if we can breed show type or field type, gosh just think if the Uni of Syndey can decide if a show or field champion can be bred. But for those who want to take it right down and push it to the wire to find out..I am game to watch you at your work and see what happens. I have been to Labrador, nice place. Edited March 7, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Surely if those dogs are best at what the breed is supposed to do, then it is the show labs that have deteriorated ?? Would have thought the same thing... The work Vs show debate rages for many breeds. It really is a discussion for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paganman Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Surely if those dogs are best at what the breed is supposed to do, then it is the show labs that have deteriorated ?? Would have thought the same thing... I carnt see where it says there show labs or even registered labs they look like crosses to me nothing to do with kennel club labs at all.You see the same thing here dogs advertised as some breed and they look nothing like it.Carnt see its got anything to do with breed standards deteriating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) The use of the term "Labrador" in those ads appears to be a key search term. The dogs might all very well be Labrador mixes. If they are, it explains the use of the term. How people have jumped to the conclusion that these are AKC registered pups beats me. Edited March 8, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aphra Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 The ads actually come via Petfinder.com which is the US equivalent of Pet Rescue, so the dogs in the ad are rescue dogs and clearly crosses from a variety of rescue groups. Labrador is probably just the way the rescue group has listed the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 There are a lot more guns and a lot more hunters in the US than Australia . . . so there's a lot more for a field gun dog to do. They don't have to get trained on those stupid dummies . . . they get the real thing from early on . . . and I'd expect US Labs, in general, outperform Australian Labs in field trials . . . would you expect a border collie from Singapore to do well in herding? You can also find proper English style Labs in the US, some of them field trained, some with big old peripotent studs (Kupros Master Mariner) in their pedigrees. I put the pup pictures up cause it sort of shocked me to see that anyone could present pups so far from what I expect of a Lab as Lab pups to the general public . . . sorry, I've lost the links . . . but it was a Gumtree quality site . . . not the sort of place where elite breeders advertize pedigree pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) I put the pup pictures up cause it sort of shocked me to see that anyone could present pups so far from what I expect of a Lab as Lab pups to the general public . . . sorry, I've lost the links . . . but it was a Gumtree quality site . . . not the sort of place where elite breeders advertize pedigree pups. I think that's the point people are trying to make. You are expecting ethics out of advertisers. Its a deterioration of ethics and not a deterioration of breed standard. Yes the US have lovely labradors also. They tend to separate them into the terms "English Lab" and "American Lab". Mariner is in the pedigree of all my labs - both the ugly and the good looking ones. It only takes one bad mating to bring it down. You either perpetuate good conformation or you bring it down. Crossing an English lab with an American field lab is one mating that will ensure poor conformation of the resultant pups, regardless of who is in the pedigree. Plenty of hunters with guns in the UK as well, but they are working with decent looking dogs. Edited March 8, 2011 by blacklabrador Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) The ads actually come via Petfinder.com which is the US equivalent of Pet Rescue, so the dogs in the ad are rescue dogs and clearly crosses from a variety of rescue groups. Labrador is probably just the way the rescue group has listed the dog. Thank you. Province is everything.....! Without it, it is impossible to comment. Talk about jumping to conclusion eh! Any time someone puts up something, they need to put the link. Edited March 8, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Province is everything.....! Without it, it is impossible to comment. Talk about jumping to conclusion eh! Any time some puts up something, they need to put the link. I presume you mean provenance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I put the pup pictures up cause it sort of shocked me to see that anyone could present pups so far from what I expect of a Lab as Lab pups to the general public . . . sorry, I've lost the links . . . but it was a Gumtree quality site . . . not the sort of place where elite breeders advertize pedigree pups. I think that's the point people are trying to make. You are expecting ethics out of advertisers. Its a deterioration of ethics and not a deterioration of breed standard. Yes the US have lovely labradors also. They tend to separate them into the terms "English Lab" and "American Lab". Mariner is in the pedigree of all my labs - both the ugly and the good looking ones. It only takes one bad mating to bring it down. You either perpetuate good conformation or you bring it down. Crossing an English lab with an American field lab is one mating that will ensure poor conformation of the resultant pups, regardless of who is in the pedigree. Plenty of hunters with guns in the UK as well, but they are working with decent looking dogs. Thats only in your opinion Give me this: or this any day! (Both US field titled labs, from a field kennel, one is actually a conformation Ch. too!) Over this (Crufts 2010 Lab BOB winner) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 The third dog is carrying too much condition but IMO is still a nice looking Lab! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 The third dog is carrying too much condition but IMO is still a nice looking Lab! I agree, he also has a correct otter tail which is a hallmark of the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 The third dog is carrying too much condition but IMO is still a nice looking Lab! What does too much condition mean? Yes and spell check with a bad speller makes for lots of mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 The third dog is carrying too much condition but IMO is still a nice looking Lab! What does too much condition mean? Should be leaner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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