Opening The Stud Books

[shortstep]

I found this bred club today for Salukis when reading up on promoting and maintaining a large amount of genetic diversity in a breed, even if the breed does not have huge numbers.

http://www.desertbred.org/index.htm

I have to admit I have a real soft spot for sight hounds and this breed really does do things to me.

I was not surprised to find this registry outside of the Kennel Club breeding desert salukis, but what did surprise me was that these dogs with 3 generations in this registry can then be registered into the AKC (Kennel Club).

More and more kennel clubs seem to be opening up to ways to address the concerns of breeders wanting more flexibility found in controlled opening of the stud books. Opportunities like these, to bring the true original dog into the closed gene pools in the kennel clubs are just fantastic. These programs could make a whole new start for some breeds, save others breeds from extinction and can only help to address so many concerns in all breeds.

On Monday I want to find if these KC registered dogs can then be imported and registered in ANKC. Anyone know?

I am goign to guess that they can not be but I hope I am wrong.

I don't suppose it is legal to hunt (like the rabbits that we kill all the time) with sight hounds in Australia?

[espinay2]

The relevant area of the ANKC regulations is Part 6 (register and registrations) section 3.4 under 'Imported Dogs'. ANKC requires that all dogs listed in the export pedigree have to be fully registered with a registration number.

I am guessing that this means if there are any 'titre initial' dogs in there, how soon any progeny can be imported into Australia will depend on the registry they are coming from and their requirements for registration. Seems though they would have to be at least 5 generations back and possibly more.

A big pity as it does reduce the genepool of dogs available to us here in Australia, and reduces the opportunity for contribution to the preservation of many 'landrace' breeds.

[Janba]

You can bring in ISDS dogs that are first generation UK KC registered and have them re registered here.

Aren't export pedigrees only 3 generations?

Edited March 6, 2011 by Janba

[shortstep]

You can bring in ISDS dogs that are first generation UK KC registered and have them re registered here.

Aren't export pedigrees only 3 generations?

Yes 3 generations. I think you are right, almost sure in fact. Also for ABCA or CBCA dogs coming from the AKC inot ANKC KC or FCI clubs.

However I do not think FCI has anything to do with it. AKC and ANKC not the KC are not FCI members. I can not think they would ask FCI for approval of their decision to register or not. Would be more likely that FCI would automatically approve of anything that AKC ANKC and KC did, just as they all honor each others decisons and pedigree.

Now how this works with controlled crossing to different breeds I am not sure. There are several Controlled cross breeding programs going in some of the Eurpopean kennel clubs right now which would be FCI, but I know little about how they earn full registration or transfer to other registries.

[Janba]

I do think it is something to do with honouring other KCs pedigrees. The ANKC is a FCI affiliate even if its not a full member.

[espinay2]

Oops yes - 3 generations. You are right.

[shortstep]

Was just reading this about the breed.

*******

Most dog breeders use some form of close breeding, variously known as linebreeding or inbreeding, as this reduces the genetic variables involved in mating two individual dogs and thereby increases the COI. The aim is to produce dogs consistent in type and quality and as such it has proved very effective for many breeders. However, an inevitable, if unintended consequence of this approach is a significant reduction of individual genes within a breed as breeders select for traits that conform to breed standards. Weir and Tessier cite in support of this claim the Imperial College Study of 2008 conducted on the basis of the UK KC Stud Book which found that in the 10 breeds studied the gene loss over six generations was a minimum of 70% (in Greyhounds) and up to 90% in some other breeds. To understand the possible implications of this it is necessary to look at current understanding of the immune system.

The section of the canine genome which covers the immune system is called the Major Histocompatibility Complex, or MHC. This is different from the usual model of two genes, either dominant or recessive, at each location of a chromosome in that within the MHC there are millions of partial codes which enable the immune system to manufacture specific defences against each disease. Geneticists have given the name haplotype to the sections into which the MHC is divided, and while it is still the case that in any one of these sections a dog can have only two haplotypes, it is becoming increasingly clear that if these are identical the dog's capacity to mount a vigorous immune response is reduced by half. Therefore, the fewer haplotypes a dog has the less able it is to fight disease and mutations such as cancers. The converse of this is that the more diverse its MHC, the more powerful and effective its immune response is likely to be.

Studies of wild animal populations appear to support the conclusion that the more genetically diverse the wild population, the healthier it is, and geneticists studying domestic animals are beginning to find evidence of the same principle.

At this point, Profesor Lohi re-enters the picture because he has developed a DNA test to estimate the diversity of an individual dog's MHC haplotypes and this test is now commercially available.While the currently available test doesn't identify disease genes per se it will enable breeders to choose breeding pairs which will only produce heterozygous puppies and research indicates that this may reduce the possibility of eventual AI diseases of various kinds in resulting litters.

In order to have options of different MHC haplotypes it is in a breed's interest to preserve the largest variety of haplotypes possible as the more identical the genes are the more likely the immune system will be to attack healthy cells of a specific type resulting in a whole range of auto-immune disorders and cancers.

It is of interest to note that Prpfessor Lohi and his team have found that the Saluki has 24 individual haplotypes, which is the same number as that found in wild canines, as opposed to the Standard Poodles sampled from the UK and Scandinavia which so far have been found to have only 6 different haplotypes.

Brought these questions to mind?

So how do saluki compare to Greys of other sight hounds for Haplotypes?

Are the current desert strains of Saluki healthier than the KC strains?

I just read this about the KC type

over recent years the incidence of previously unknown or uncommon auto-immune disorders and cancers in Salukis has increased

********

It is so hard to pick through all this stuff the way it is presented.

However I would still love to have a desert Saluki, I should know better than to look at anything that had to do with Saluki...LOL I am only going to get into trouble.

Oh and can I add a desert afghan with the shorted coat too, just because you might as well be killed for a sheep as a lamb, eh?

I better also learn how to spell bedouin LOL.

Edited March 6, 2011 by shortstep

[Gogee]

I'm hoping one of the very knowledgable Saluki folk may see this thread and post a response, especially those that know about desert bred/COO dogs

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'm hoping one of the very knowledgable Saluki folk may see this thread and post a response, especially those that know about desert bred/COO dogs

I'm not sure that's me but I'll give this a go.

Shortstep, once the AKC recognises them on their registry, you can transfer them to ANKC registration. A Saluki with COO background has recently been imported into Victoria from America and she is registered - I'm guessing that some of her ancestors would have come through the SPDBS. The AKC has a similar entry scheme for Basenji and there are some Basenji imports in South Australia with COO background that have come down from that scheme. You can't register a dog straight from the COO through this scheme due to the 3 generations requirement

I have a COO Saluki from Bahrain in my backyard who is ANKC registered and she is a direct import. She was able to be registered because she was registered in Bahrain, which has a KC which is FCI affiliated. I think of the COO (broadly speaking) only Bahrain and Morocco have FCI affiliation? Anyway, in order to be registered in Bahrain you have to satisfy the registrar, who is very experienced and exacting, as to the dogs pedigree back over 3 generations. My girl's pedigree was already registered back that far. A friend was offered a beautiful bitch a couple of years ago, but as the pedigree on one side could not be absolutely established, she could not be registered, and so could not be transferred to the Australian registry. So it didn't happen.

I suppose I also want to sound a note of caution for those who think that might be unnecessarily harsh. 200 years of European interaction in the Middle East has lead to what you would expect - a lot of cross breeding, including way back at the turn of last century. Even today a lot of young arab guys will go for whatever is fastest, which usually means cross breeding with greyhounds and others. Some won't use the term "desert" about a Saluki because to them it means "off the desert" - ie, of dubious purity. That's why I use COO Saluki to be completely clear. There are some excellent stewards of the breed in the ME, including the Bahrain registrar. It can be very hard to tell what you have in front of you unless you know the breed and the area it came from well and I have no problem at all with them being really fussy.

My Bahraini girl is having a litter at the end of this year. I expect the owner of the bitch in Melbourne may have plans for her girl too as would Farousi Salukis in WA who have my girl's sister. So if you're serious about wanting a COO heritage Saluki you have a number of options right here in Australia and progeny of all three bitches are registrable. One thing people should definitely NOT do is locate a dog in the ME and assume the ANKC can be convinced to register it. Some pretty heavy hitters in the breed tried to help someone out with this exact issue recently and the answer was a flat no. With all this, it pays to do your homework before committing to the dog. There is a lot you can do in Salukis within the existing rules.

A final note of caution - there are alleged problems particularly in Europe & Israel, with dogs being passed off as COO when they are not. People know there is a cachet to COO dogs and they play on it. So it comes back to homework.

Edited for clarity

Edited March 6, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Are the current desert strains of Saluki healthier than the KC strains?

I just read this about the KC type

over recent years the incidence of previously unknown or uncommon auto-immune disorders and cancers in Salukis has increased

It is so hard to pick through all this stuff the way it is presented.

It sure is - this area is a political nightmare btw, there are factions of COO types and some heavy agendas. No-one can answer your questions for sure and no-one can guarantee that any dog will be healthier.

One observation I will make: like working dogs everywhere, if a Saluki doesn't perform or sickens in the COO, then the solution is not usually to fret over the pedigree and do tests but just to put it down - and not always humanely (or worse, which I won't go into here). However, one of the big attractions for me in having a COO Saluki is that I am a health nut and I think I have a better chance of healthy dogs this way than using heavily line bred dogs. At least in the ME, you get natural matings, natural whelpings and if a dog doesn't cut it, it isn't used. So it's a good chance, but not a guarantee. So far my girl has come through her health checks with flying colours but I'm not counting chickens.

[shortstep]

One observation I will make: like working dogs everywhere, if a Saluki doesn't perform or sickens in the COO, then the solution is not usually to fret over the pedigree and do tests but just to put it down - and not always humanely (or worse, which I won't go into here). However, one of the big attractions for me in having a COO Saluki is that I am a health nut and I think I have a better chance of healthy dogs this way than using heavily line bred dogs. At least in the ME, you get natural matings, natural whelpings and if a dog doesn't cut it, it isn't used. So it's a good chance, but not a guarantee. So far my girl has come through her health checks with flying colours but I'm not counting chickens.

That is just great that there are several of these dogs here already. When they are bred are they getting put to other imported Coo dogs or to the resident population?

If there has been a male imported is there much interest in using him?

I just bought a pup (not a saluki) in the UK, well almost, just finishing health testing but all looks to be good. So any new dog for me will would have to be after I recover from this. But I'm now even more excited to think there are some of these dogs over here. I really should get on a list for a pup in a year of two, I have always wanted one!

Do you do any lure racing or ?? with your dogs? I would love to come and watch some time.

Edited March 6, 2011 by shortstep

[Jed]

Breeders who understand genetics will embrace outcrossing.

Those who think an outcross makes a purebred dog a mongrel, even after 20 generations will not embrace it.

Breeders who have spent 20, 30, 40, 50 years producing a top quality line of dogs - of any breed - which display success in the ring, good health and temperament and the abiliity to breed on will not embrace it.

We have previews of this from the dalmations and the bob tail boxers.

Rather than making blanket rules, the CCs should investigate ALL the research (there is much that does not agree with McGreevey) lay it on the table for those breeders who are not au fait with research.

And, inconsultation with breed clubs, maybe decide whether back crossing is necessary.

there is no point in making rules which breeders do not agree with because they will not adhere to them. They will either walk away, or lie.

I personally don't think it is necessary. And all the reseach on in breeding is negated by some other studies. In all breeds.

I wanted to breed purebred dogs, I am not interested in mongrels, and I don;t want to breed the numbers or within the time frame to breed back to pure. Most of my friends of similar age will walk. And the loss of knowledge will go a long way to sinking the hobby.

JMHO

But I have always been pessimistic about this.

[Alyosha]

And for Shortstep - live coursing is illegal in Australia. This is where a prey animal is released for coursing by dogs.

Obviously native animals are protected and can't be hunted. But rabbit hunting, as with foxes, hares etc, plus pigs, feral deer etc, is not illegal. It is a different thing to coursing - where the prey animal is considered to be a a big disadvantage, and it is inhumane as that animal is already captured, so should be dispatched as humanely as possible.

Lure coursing is common in several states, awards and titles can be a part of it, and you can contact your State controlling body to find events etc.

My dogs hunt rabbits, hare and foxes if they flush one on country walks. But often lack the space they need to really get near them - they need Russian tundra or steppes! Salukis or Afghans have better luck in smaller spaces, as do Whippets.

[Diva]

There is no ANKC recognised lure coursing title, which is a shame. My Borzoi have caught rabbits, but not often as I usually avoid running them in places they will put up live game. There is at least one COO Borzoi in Australia, and a number descended from COO dogs or western bred dogs with racing or coursing titles. It's not the same as opening the stud book, but it's important to stop the breed degenerating.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Diva

[shortstep]

COO dogs or western bred dogs with racing or coursing titles. It's not the same as opening the stud book, but it's important to stop the breed degenerating.

My understanding of the term open or closed stud book is

Open, the stud book is open to take in new dogs, dogs coming from outside of the kennel club. An example of an open Stud book would be if ANKC accepted WKC dogs. The dogs being brought in are the same breed, but they are dogs that are not currently registered in the kennel club. (Off topic, but I think very much to the point, One of the people who pushed so hard for change in kennel club breeding practices, started his efforts because the stud book was closed to imported Siberians from Sibera. In hind sight it might have been better to let him have his one off imported dog eh? Instead he started the KCs world wide 25 years of anti kennel club action leading up to PDE and all the UK trouble, which BTW he did not support. He also started a big trend towards forming new registries that were more flexiable in meeting the members needs. He started one for Sibs and it is a very popular world wide, meaning the kennel club has lost more members and their dogs because of their refusal to understand the desires of their breeders to use COO sibs.)

Closed, a closed stud book is when no new dogs of the breed are allowed in to the stud book, only dogs from other affiliated KC stud books may be registered, it is now a isolated population with no new dogs allowed. An example of a closed stud book is ANKC refusing to accept WKC dogs.

An open stud book is not the same as cross breeding to other breeds of dogs.

A Cross breeding is usually done (as it was with the Dalmatian), under direct supervision and control, involving many persons, the breed club, science experts, vets and so forth. It should not go on for more then what the original plan was designed to do, in the case of the dalmation it was to bring in a normal gene to the population because there were not dogs in the stud book that were not carriers?? or maybe they were all affected with the disease.

There are several cross breeding plans going on for disease in FCI in Europe right now. I do not have much information on them, but it would appear they are going to become a much more common events.

As to this practice being the same as breeding mongrels, I do not see a carefully planned and controlled crossing, one time to a carefully selected breed to bring in a healthy gene to a sick population as breeding mongrels at all. But I do think that the reason for the one time cross needs to be justified, as in a seriouse health problem that cannot be corrected with out intervention (or a very small gene pool and with out crossing the breed will go extinct).

Edited March 6, 2011 by shortstep

[SkySoaringMagpie]

That is just great that there are several of these dogs here already. When they are bred are they getting put to other imported Coo dogs or to the resident population?

The girls that are here are part of what I'd call the "second wave" of COO Salukis in Australia, and to date none of the bitches have been bred from. Well over 20 years ago, a Saudi dog, Aj Mohammed was imported and is behind a number of Australian Salukis, including my smooth boy. His nephew, Bearsnrails al Bes also had Iranian stock behind him, and is behind a number of other Salukis both here and overseas. I think his owner still has some semen stored. Some of the Salukis that come down from him look like 4 year olds and they are 10, they are impressively healthy dogs. I think it's important to remember that some Western Saluki people have been doing this for a while, well before PDE came along to shake things up.

Do you do any lure racing or ?? with your dogs? I would love to come and watch some time.

Yes, we do it on a private basis as getting a suitable venue and insurance for publicly accessible lure coursing has been too hard. Your profile says you are in QLD, which has the best public lure coursing set up in Australia. I'd get in touch with the QLD lure coursing association and go and have a look.

Edit: 8 guests reading at 4am in the morning Australian time. How odd.

Edited March 6, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie