Sayreovi Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 There are some rare breeds that are shown. They get their CH because they are often the only dog there. A CH title is gained by just turning up.Is that a good way to evaluate your breeding stock? I would like to know a better way? Should I just give up showing because I am the only one there? Why are my show champion dogs of any less quality then more common breed champions? They are still awarded under knowledgeble international judges even when they are the only one there. They are not flashy or good enough to take on the top GrChs, but they aren't undeserving of their title because through no fault of their own, that their title is made up of 6/7 pointers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Most of the people who show rare breeds do so because they like them. I certainly didn't get my Tollers to be amazing show stoppers! If I did I would be very disappointed ;) I show because it's a nice day out with my dogs and more relaxing than doing flyball/agility/obedience, I show to get my breed out there and show that yes there is a breed after Labs and before Pointers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss B Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 If a judge feels that a dog is not worthy of a title, they can non-award. So really a Ch cannot be gained by simply turning up. One must also have a dog that is, in that particular judge's opinion, a worthy example of the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Yes, Zug Zuz, you ARE a worrier. So true - guilty as charged! Thanks Jed and others - that does make a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjelkier Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 When I first started showing I had what to my mind were very nice dogs. I would have had no hesitation in saying they were show quality and worthy of breeding. Showing and losing made me be more critical and opened my eyes to my dogs faults in a way nothing else would have. I agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlemum Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 If the Judges truly judged the Dogs against the Standard which is the way it is supposed to work, and then only awarded those dogs that are of such quality to be truly worthy of being awarded the title of champion then this would not be the case.It is not the system it is the way it is being miss used. Interesting point, but Judges aren't always specialists in a particular breed - they might be judging Group 7 but still not know what a Poodle should look like & give an inferior "type" Best Of Breed" because it's the only one there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss B Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Interesting point, but Judges aren't always specialists in a particular breed - they might be judging Group 7 but still not know what a Poodle should look like & give an inferior "type" Best Of Breed" because it's the only one there They shouldn't be judging a group unless they are properly educated in the breed standards for that group. ETA: Mind you, someone I know once put her dog on the table only to have the judge ask "Excuse me ma'am but what breed is this?" Edited March 6, 2011 by Miss B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florise Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Interesting point, but Judges aren't always specialists in a particular breed - they might be judging Group 7 but still not know what a Poodle should look like & give an inferior "type" Best Of Breed" because it's the only one there They shouldn't be judging a group unless they are properly educated in the breed standards for that group. But don't forget also that they all have different taste and judge with different eyes and ideas of how a breed should be. Some may overlook faults in favour of overall type and some can't look past certain faults. Unless you get a detailed critique, how can you know why they make the decisions they make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss B Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Interesting point, but Judges aren't always specialists in a particular breed - they might be judging Group 7 but still not know what a Poodle should look like & give an inferior "type" Best Of Breed" because it's the only one there They shouldn't be judging a group unless they are properly educated in the breed standards for that group. But don't forget also that they all have different taste and judge with different eyes and ideas of how a breed should be. Some may overlook faults in favour of overall type and some can't look past certain faults. Unless you get a detailed critique, how can you know why they make the decisions they make? Interpreting the standard "their" way is different to having no knowledge of the standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Interesting point, but Judges aren't always specialists in a particular breed - they might be judging Group 7 but still not know what a Poodle should look like & give an inferior "type" Best Of Breed" because it's the only one there They shouldn't be judging a group unless they are properly educated in the breed standards for that group. I agree, it shouldn't fall on the exhibitor to know which judges actually know what a good dog of said breed is, the judges should know the standards of all breeds in the group if they are judging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 When I first started showing I had what to my mind were very nice dogs. I would have had no hesitation in saying they were show quality and worthy of breeding. Showing and losing made me be more critical and opened my eyes to my dogs faults in a way nothing else would have. This is a really interesting point, and one that other people have also talked about. I guess the question in my mind is are these 'faults' only relevant to the show ring, or are they the kinds of things that are relevant to the dog's health/temperament/suitability as a companion or sports prospect? They are relevant for any dog that is being considered for breeding. Only the best to the best should be bred. I strongly oppose people breeding solely for the pet market and believe every single litter bred should be with a view to improving, not just because you own the dog and want to have babies. I personally wish they would bring stricter requirements in for new breeders as I hate people who buy in a bitch and then next thing are breeding. What is the rush? I think they should have to show for 3-4 years and title at least one dog. It took me years to appreciate what I really wanted to breed and even now if I am not excited about the litter I won't do it. If you approached me looking for a pet/obedience dog I would pick the most suitable puppy for that. To be really successful at obedience you have to have a drivey puppy that may perhaps not be as suitable for a pet home that wants a dog to cuddle on the couch and walk once a day If you wanted to do agility I would be looking for something sound but perhaps it might not have the best head. If a breeder doesn't have the right puppy for you I would hope they would be honest enough to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazzat Xolo Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 of course you can but there are so many things to consider as many have said, I am onloy showing for the breed, wont affect my puppy sales or who I choose to get dogs too. When the breed is more esatblsiehd here I would definately want some agility, obedience and a few show dogs out there, I think for a breed this is a good thing. Not forgetting the pets who are dearly loved and for whatever reason are just that that, pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Also a dog with ears set too high/low, perhaps a more placid dog that doesn't 'perform' in the ring, etc. etc. These are things that are unlikely to concern me as a pet/obedience owner. Just wanted to mention that sometimes something that seems cosmetic, like ear set, is related to performance ability. It's another reason why I think pet only breeding is a risky proposition. Fitness for purpose is part of the breed type and we should be aiming for the best to the extent we can in modern society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Just wanted to mention that sometimes something that seems cosmetic, like ear set, is related to performance ability. It's another reason why I think pet only breeding is a risky proposition. Fitness for purpose is part of the breed type and we should be aiming for the best to the extent we can in modern society. Just want to agree with this. My breed are supposed to have small, fine, high set, rose ears. And in quantitative studies of hundreds of individual dogs across several continents, small, fine, high set, rose ears have been shown to be strongly correlated with speed, an important breed feature. Probably that kind of ear is indicative of good connective tissue for sprinting - but whatever it is, it isn't just cosmetic. I think you can breed without showing, but you need some kind of comparative testing to avoid kennel blindness. I'd be happier with showing as the main way of doing that testing if presentation, hair dressing and cronyism didn't play such a large role in the results, and a title required some kind of health and/or performance testing as well - but it's still better than no benchmarking at all. Edited March 6, 2011 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I don't think there will ever be the perfect system for Judging dogs, however it is not the shows or the judges who should be making the calls regarding Breeding it is the BREEDER, the Breeder is where the deepest knowledge of the breed should be found and where the responsibility for preserving and improving truly rests. IMO dog shows are excellent resources for Breeders to use to evaluate with their own eyes and using their knowledge to choose or discard animals for their breeding program, and to discuss these things with fellow breeders. Where the dogs are placed on the day is meaningless. I would never make a decision based on show wins or judges opinions, so for me if a dog has wins on the board because it is the only pretty fish in a small tank or happens to be the flavour of the month it means nothing from a Breeding point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I personally wish they would bring stricter requirements in for new breeders as I hate people who buy in a bitch and then next thing are breeding. What is the rush? I think they should have to show for 3-4 years and title at least one dog. Well you can push to have this made the rule. Maybe this be good idea. By only allowing show folks to breed dogs in the kennel club this would stop all the others who do not want to show from ever breeding in the kennel club. There might be lots of pluses in doing this. It would strongly establish the kennel club as a show dog based group. Show breeders would no longer have to be associated with those who do not show. The public shopping for a pet can easily recognize the show bred pup. The show breeders can work directly with the uni and animal rights folks on the issue that are only affecting the show breeders. I sure this list could grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I don't think there will ever be the perfect system for Judging dogs, however it is not the shows or the judges who should be making the calls regarding Breeding it is the BREEDER, the Breeder is where the deepest knowledge of the breed should be found and where the responsibility for preserving and improving truly rests. IMO dog shows are excellent resources for Breeders to use to evaluate with their own eyes and using their knowledge to choose or discard animals for their breeding program, and to discuss these things with fellow breeders. Where the dogs are placed on the day is meaningless. I would never make a decision based on show wins or judges opinions, so for me if a dog has wins on the board because it is the only pretty fish in a small tank or happens to be the flavour of the month it means nothing from a Breeding point of view. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Interesting point, but Judges aren't always specialists in a particular breed - they might be judging Group 7 but still not know what a Poodle should look like & give an inferior "type" Best Of Breed" because it's the only one there They shouldn't be judging a group unless they are properly educated in the breed standards for that group. It's just not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskedaway Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Interesting point, but Judges aren't always specialists in a particular breed - they might be judging Group 7 but still not know what a Poodle should look like & give an inferior "type" Best Of Breed" because it's the only one there They shouldn't be judging a group unless they are properly educated in the breed standards for that group. ETA: Mind you, someone I know once put her dog on the table only to have the judge ask "Excuse me ma'am but what breed is this?" I have been told to be aware that there will be a few judges who have absolutely no clue what breed Halo is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazzat Xolo Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Interesting point, but Judges aren't always specialists in a particular breed - they might be judging Group 7 but still not know what a Poodle should look like & give an inferior "type" Best Of Breed" because it's the only one there They shouldn't be judging a group unless they are properly educated in the breed standards for that group. It's just not going to happen. lololol Yes I fully agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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