Can You Breed If You Don't Show?

[Kirislin]

I bred 2 litters and I dont show. I wanted to have a racing line of pedigree whippets. I find to my dismay I dont really like the direction my beloved breed is heading in anyway now. Whippets are often above the height standard now, so much so that if one is within the standard it's often overlooked as being too small. If I could find another bitch just like Kibah, small, compact, very curvy, and fast, I would continue to try for my racing line of correct to standard whippets, but I know for sure they wouldn't do any good in the show ring.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Kirislin

[Crisovar]

There is nothing wrong with testing your dogs against the breed standard after all that is how dogs are judged at Shows, against the breed standard.

Many years ago I was lucky enough to have the guidance and support of some wonderful Breeders, several of whom did not show. If you looked at pedigrees of dogs back then you would see the prefixes of these people threaded through the lines of some of the most successful dogs of the Breed.

The knowledge that some of these people had stored in their heads was just amazing, and the willingness to share it with a young and enthusiastic tadpole was humbling.

If you went to specialty show they were there, not to exhibit but to watch and you would find people sitting around listening to these people and showing them their latest hopefuls. They KNEW the breed, and the people in the breed knew them.

They didn't care a fig for the placements of the dogs on the day, they simply watched and talked. They made note of dogs that took their eye, and they looked at the breeding, they made note of poor specimens, and again looked at the breeding.

If you asked them who won that day they possibly couldn't tell you, because it wasn't the Judges opinion that mattered.

I don't think I ever recall one person ever looking down on these Breeders because they were not competitors, today it would be a different story and the opinions of people who would not have respect and admiration for them and what they knew and could share I have no time for.

[aussielover]

I think in some breeds, the way the breed standard is interpreted, is less than desirable (obviously my opinion only). There is nothing wrong with the standard itself, it is the way it is interpreted which of course is subjective and peoples opinion can vary.

The truest way to test whether a dog is bred to standard (imo), is to work it in its original purpose, which is not always possible.

This brings us to the "show vs working" debate, which I think the OP doesn't really want to go into...

I think it is commendable to title or work your dogs in an activity that they were bred for, or that is closely or somewhat related to what they were bred for.

To answer the question, I think you can breed if you don't show, as long as it for a working purpose and you are aware of health problems and have a good knowledge of your breeds history and a reaosnable interpretation of the breed standard.

[poodlefan]

Yes you can.

And if you're talking about breeds with extremely high maintenance show coats like poodles, I can understand why you're asking!

The challenge for the non-showing or non-performance breeder is to find other ways to keep developing an eye for good dogs and for measuring yours against others. One method is to get pups you breed placed in show homes.

[Nekhbet]

In Australia you can breed a dog and register a litter as long as theyre both on main register and you have a kennel name. Apart from that there is nothing else to preclude you from breeding as many pups as you like with whatever dogs you want to use.

[Mystiqview]

This topic has been done any number of times. I would also suggest you go searching through the old topics.

The show ring is not the bee all and end all:

There are some rare breeds that are shown. They get their CH because they are often the only dog there. A CH title is gained by just turning up.

Is that a good way to evaluate your breeding stock?

In more common breeds, some people with lesser quality animals drive out of the way to attend shows. Again they are often the only ones there. And their CH is won with petrol and 6 point challenge certificates.

Is this a good way to evaluate breeding stock?

Other people have damn good dogs and don't show. They may have a myriad of reasons, "no time", "injury", "kids" or no interest. They may be very knowledgeable and know their breed well and have the eye to judge a good dog.

Some people who do show, still do not have a good eye for a good dog. Some people who compete in sports may or may not have a good eye for a dog.

Just because a dog is doing well in the sporting field, does not automatically mean the dog is great on conformation. And for this definition of conformation, I mean SHOW conformation.

You will find that those that show dogs for their breed have certain criteria and a "look" about their dogs. Those that do performance also have a a certain criteria or "look" about their dogs.

It does not mean that either camp is wrong, or their look is necessarily "better" than the other's. People breed for different reasons and want different attributes coming out in their program.

Health, temperament, structure (a dog that does not break down with say HD/ED) are probably the most important attributes in a breeding program. There is the breed standard of course, but the breed standard is subjective in may ways. While it gives the breeder a guide to what their breed should be, it is the interpretation of that standard that differs.

There are people who breed for the pet market. Their dogs are not "show quality" in what many of us would call quality. They are "sound" dogs that are that. "just dogs". The temperaments are good, they health test and do the right things generally for the breed. They do not make illusions about what they are breeding for.

Then there are those who breed because they can. Again their dogs are "just dogs". Nothing special about them. Temperaments may be sound. They may breed for (in my breed) colour and may not do all the health testing. They proclaim their dogs are "show quality" when they are clearly not. Unsuspecting puppy buyer gets one of these dogs and trots off to a show ring, to be laughed and ridiculed at by other breeders. (not openly maybe) but are told their dog is not the quality they were led to believe.

It is this group I think that many ethical breeders dislike. They are breeding to cash in on the "money". Shortcuts are taken and in the course of the long term, gives ethical breeders a bad name as unsuspecting joe public has their first dealing with these breeders then tars all other breeders with the same brush.

ETA: Post layout

Edited March 5, 2011 by Mystiqview

[Tay.]

In most cases, I'd prefer to a puppy from a non-showing breeder. As I prefer working/performance over show dogs.

[Gayle.]

Some states are very poorly represented with some breeds, so to show in those states, where there is little to no competition, the breeders would need to keep a very close eye on other states and make careful note of what's happening there and breed to better THOSE dogs, not necessarily their own.

I know of a breeder who thought he was breeding nice dogs, he had nothing in his state to compare his with, he went overseas and visited a successful breeder of the same breed, came home, desexed every dog he owned and re-homed them to pet homes, then started again from dogs he imported.

There are some rare breeds that are shown. They get their CH because they are often the only dog there. A CH title is gained by just turning up.

Is that a good way to evaluate your breeding stock?

In more common breeds, some people with lesser quality animals drive out of the way to attend shows. Again they are often the only ones there. And their CH is won with petrol and 6 point challenge certificates.

Is this a good way to evaluate breeding stock?

This is where I start to wonder about the show points system in Australia. The title "champion" doesn't mean a lot if that dog is the only one of it's kind being shown. The points are racked up regardless of whether the dog is first class representation of the standard or not.

[Crisovar]

If the Judges truly judged the Dogs against the Standard which is the way it is supposed to work, and then only awarded those dogs that are of such quality to be truly worthy of being awarded the title of champion then this would not be the case.

It is not the system it is the way it is being miss used.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Crisovar

[Zug Zug]

Thanks everyone very interesting thoughts and informative.

In particular, I do take the point that there needs to be some way of comparing the quality of your dogs with others. If not showing, then something.

I am keen on poodles, and I hope my next dog will be a standard poodle. I am off to the breed National next week, and will be taking notes about the dogs I like. I have already found one breeder I really like (both her and her dogs).

But yes in this breed I could understand why some people with great dogs might give showing a miss, but perhaps stay in touch in other ways.

[espinay2]

It is not so much about showing or not showing but rather about being INVOLVED in the dog community. It is about learning and continuing to learn. It is about keeping perspective and being critical of what you produce so you are always improving.

The social and professional contact you get by showing can help, particularly someone new to breeding, to make those connections. It is not the only way, but it is one good way.

Showing BTW, is not about being out there every weekend (though some do this). I have shown to greater and lesser degrees over the years. some years more than others (and right now for me I think I have done only one show since last November). but I have found the contacts I have made over the years (through both showing and obedience) to be invaluable.

In my breed I know a lot of top international and well respected breeders (overseas) who only do a few big specialty style shows a year. But they have earned their respect by breeding good dogs (who take out the top awards at these shows and others) and by being involved with the breed in other ways too. They dont breed in a vaccum, but know what is going on in their breed and elsewhere and have developed the contacts and respect over many years.

But this can be a hard thing for a 'newbie' to do - so when it comes to showing I always recommend that someone has a go, even if they dont do it all the time or only do it occasionally (eg a good way to go about if you dont want to show all the time can be to show for a while to title a new young dog then sporadically at the bigger shows or specialties in between. And/or show a young dog in conformation to title then concentrate on performance sports such as obedience, agility etc etc once they are a bit more mature).

It is a lot easier later on when you have more experience and contacts to make the decision not to show if you find that side of things is not for you.

JMHO

[poodlefan]

In more common breeds, some people with lesser quality animals drive out of the way to attend shows. Again they are often the only ones there. And their CH is won with petrol and 6 point challenge certificates.

Is this a good way to evaluate breeding stock?

I honestly think the introduction of the GR CH award has made petrol championships a thing of the past if they ever did exist. People may go hunting challenge points and hit already titled dogs hunting groups.

In most of the common breeds I can think of it is a rare show that sees less than half a dozen entered and even then there is no guarantee of points. Dogs get refused more often than some folk might think.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I honestly think the introduction of the GR CH award has made petrol championships a thing of the past if they ever did exist. People may go hunting challenge points and hit already titled dogs hunting groups.

In most of the common breeds I can think of it is a rare show that sees less than half a dozen entered and even then there is no guarantee of points. Dogs get refused more often than some folk might think.

I agree with this tho' I think it's pointscore rather than the Gr Ch title producing this effect. We often run into the top winners in my breed and you see some of them at very small shows. Being in show admin, I do see refusals too, perhaps more than your average punter does because most judges are quite discrete about how they do it. Maybe not enough to prevent a dog getting titled, but enough to slow them down enough to rethink.

There are always going to be champions that are not worth the title in some people's eyes. Heck, there are going to be Gr Chs that are unworthy in some people's eyes, even if they have scored a BIS. To some extent it's an argument about taste and/or breed knowledge, not quality. The generic show dog is not always the correct dog.

[poodlefan]

I honestly think the introduction of the GR CH award has made petrol championships a thing of the past if they ever did exist. People may go hunting challenge points and hit already titled dogs hunting groups.

In most of the common breeds I can think of it is a rare show that sees less than half a dozen entered and even then there is no guarantee of points. Dogs get refused more often than some folk might think.

I agree with this tho' I think it's pointscore rather than the Gr Ch title producing this effect. We often run into the top winners in my breed and you see some of them at very small shows. Being in show admin, I do see refusals too, perhaps more than your average punter does because most judges are quite discrete about how they do it. Maybe not enough to prevent a dog getting titled, but enough to slow them down enough to rethink.

There are always going to be champions that are not worth the title in some people's eyes. Heck, there are going to be Gr Chs that are unworthy in some people's eyes, even if they have scored a BIS. To some extent it's an argument about taste and/or breed knowledge, not quality. The generic show dog is not always the correct dog.

Forgot about the pointscore effect. At a Cooma show a few years back, you could have been forgiven for thinking it had been held at Erky Park - lots of big names and big winning dogs.

I don't know too many people who discount what wins at Specialties, especially when the same dogs rarely get the nod from Allbreeds judges. I know which awards matter most to most folk I know!

70 Whippets were entered at a country show last year due to the presence of a renowned English Whippet breeder who judged three breeds only in Hound Group. Anyone rocking up expecting a small entry would have gotten a very rude shock.

Edited March 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[cowanbree]

When I first started showing I had what to my mind were very nice dogs. I would have had no hesitation in saying they were show quality and worthy of breeding. Showing and losing made me be more critical and opened my eyes to my dogs faults in a way nothing else would have.

[Jed]

Mystique

There are some rare breeds that are shown. They get their CH because they are often the only dog there. A CH title is gained by just turning up.

Is that a good way to evaluate your breeding stock?

You are right, but what is the answer for rare breeds? The Sussex Spaniel is so rare he is almost endangered, and you can go to fifty shows without seeing one. But if they are not shown, no one ever sees them. Clumbers were just as rare some years ago, then people began seeing them, and "got into" the breed, and they aren't so rare any more. And a Sussex was BIS a few weeks ago.

Most of the people who show rare breeds do so because they like them.

Great post Crisovar. And if you were sitting next to one of those breeders, and asked why that dog carried his head low, was it his neck placement? They would kindly say no, his front legs were too short. And next time, you knew why. And you knew there would be no snide remarks about the quallity of the dog, or about your lack of knowledge.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Jed

[Zug Zug]

When I first started showing I had what to my mind were very nice dogs. I would have had no hesitation in saying they were show quality and worthy of breeding. Showing and losing made me be more critical and opened my eyes to my dogs faults in a way nothing else would have.

This is a really interesting point, and one that other people have also talked about. I guess the question in my mind is are these 'faults' only relevant to the show ring, or are they the kinds of things that are relevant to the dog's health/temperament/suitability as a companion or sports prospect?

Of course I assume it might be a mix. But for example a poodle with a patch of white on the chest is fine with me as a pet/obedience person. But a poodle with poor movement might make me worry about long-term health and stability.

Also a dog with ears set too high/low, perhaps a more placid dog that doesn't 'perform' in the ring, etc. etc. These are things that are unlikely to concern me as a pet/obedience owner. Some of the more placid dogs may in fact be the best pets, while some of the best show dogs may actually be a pain in the neck to live with because they're so 'up' (although these dogs are also likely to be good at obedience because confidence is a good thing to have for that kind of work).

On the other hand, there will be a range of pups in most litters I presume - and show-quality littermates suckling alongside sweet-natured pets by a breeder that shows. So perhaps I'm getting confused with the breeder vs. the selection of pup within the litter?

Won't a show breeder want to give the best pups to a show home? Could this mean I risk being left with 'whatever is left', rather than having an opportunity to select a puppy?

Forgive me - I am a bit of a worrier and perhaps I am thinking too much about this.

[Jed]

Yes, Zug Zuz, you ARE a worrier.

It is most unlikely the breeder let you have a top show prospect - probably will keep it for himself. Even if you show, it's difficult to get a top show prospect out of a show breeder.

But if it is a decent breeder, your pet dog will be a good quality dog which does fulfill the standard ... and his faults will be small ones, so when people look at him, he fillls their eye. A decent registered dog from a good breeder will do that every time.

And it may be if the breeder has a show prospect and wants it shown, you can take it to shows, and the breeder will show it for you. If you want to do that?

Not big noting myself, but I bred some beautiful boxers - stunning - but they were just too gentle for the ring - no ooompah, no zing! They made the most delightful pets, and one was a helper dog for a quadraplegic. One went to the vet for castration and the vet refused - said the dog was too good!!

So don't think you will get some shabby dog. A good breeder will fit you out with a good dog. My breeder shows, but she would rather sell a show quality dog to a lovely pet home than to a poor show home (so would I)

Cowanbree

When I first started showing I had what to my mind were very nice dogs. I would have had no hesitation in saying they were show quality and worthy of breeding. Showing and losing made me be more critical and opened my eyes to my dogs faults in a way nothing else would have.

Yep, there is that.

[blacklabrador]

When I first started showing I had what to my mind were very nice dogs. I would have had no hesitation in saying they were show quality and worthy of breeding. Showing and losing made me be more critical and opened my eyes to my dogs faults in a way nothing else would have.

It's a bit more difficult to be kennel blind if you have evidence from having your dogs judged that they don't meet the standard according to the many people they've been shown under.

Do breeders have to show? Not at all. Sitting for a whole day in the heat, waiting for your 2 minutes of glory (or not) is not for everyone. Should breeders be breeding dogs that OTHER PEOPLE SEEK TO EXHIBIT??? Damn straight.

[OSoSwift]

What I have found in general if you go to a breeder that breeds very good quality dogs and knows what they are doing you generally get a fairly even litter. Now there will most likely be a stand out or two and you may not get those, but the ones below those pups as such are still very good quality and could quite likely do well in the ring, they may not be a BIS winner but still would not embaress you in the ring as all of the puppies are very good quality, but they only breed from, show, pick the absolute cream of the crop. That means your puppy will be quality.