Zug Zug Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I am hoping for a calm discussion of the pros and cons if possible. I am interested in people's thoughts about people breeding, but not showing dogs. Perhaps they are into some kind of dog sports, or have some other interest in dogs. Let's assume they are willing to do the health testing etc and to do some research to pick a healthy dog to sire a litter. What do people think? Is showing the only (or even the best) way to select breeding stock? I know this is a sensitive topic. I am not considering a future in breeding myself. But I also wonder if breeding and showing need to be linked. Surely there are other ways to select the best animals to breed from...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Conformation showing isn't the be-all and end-all but IMO it is essential to participate in some form of competition where the success or otherwise of the produce of your breeding programme can be measured against the produce of other breeder's programmes - be this herding, agility, obedience, retrieving or whatever. Breeding specifically and solely for the pet market, no matter how careful you are in your selection gives you no way of grading your success or failure. You sell a puppy to someone and they think it's a great pet - well sorry but a lot of people think their pet is great even if it's neutrotic, bad tempered and untrainable! Health and temperament should always come first regardless of why you're breeding, so breeding dogs with great temperament and heath stats is barely the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 The breeder I bought Benson from does not show. She used to when she first got into the breed but hasn't done for years. She also does not participate in any dog sports herself but has bred dogs who are very successful in obedience and agility. She has a PhD in some kind of animal welfare....dogs as companions is her speciality, and she breeds absolutely awesome dogs. Benson is a dog with a temperament that is highly desirable for a pet, and if I ever decided to give him away I'd have people lining up for miles for him. I've aslo had breeders gnash their teeth at the fact that he's neutered, and I've had a group 5 judge ask why I haven't got him in the ring. He's beautifully put together and moves like a dream, although he's not a conventional "show" prospect due to his very dark colouring. His breeder has an agenda other than showing, but she is producing awesome pups (not often though), doing all the required health testing etc, and has imported one of her sires to complement the lines she uses. She also breeds Lagottos, and used to breed pedigree alpacas but she's gotten out of them recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Yes you can breed if you dont show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myValkyrie Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 In some breeds, all breeds show results mean nothing or close to it - specialty show results are the go. In others, what is most important is soundness & working ability - I have a bitch here that is a brilliant working dog but sucked as a showdog - for the very qualities that make her the working dog she is. Shows are only as good a guide as the judge on the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I don't believe showing and breeding are mutually exclusive. Some people love showing, some don't. There was no problem until about 20 years ago, when animal rights (direct from US) told us that if we bred more than one litter every 2 years, or we did not breed to produce further show stock for ourselves, we were some kind of puppy farmer. Sometimes I show, sometimes I don't. I show when I feel like it. I don't give a rats rectum whether people label me a "puppy farmer" or a byb. That is their choice. I don't breed many - my choice - I breed less than I used to, and I admit to a certain gratification when people who look down on me are beaten by a dog I bred - usually in other ownership. I love it when dogs I bred win 29 point challenges, or specialties, or royals. I breed dogs which do win from dogs which have never been shown. The people who know me know who and what I am, and that is all that matters. I don't care about the others. I don't have a website, I don't advertise. It's not about being a person who is known as successful from my own advertising or their website. It is about having the dogs, caring for them, and producing litters, having that pleasure, and hoping my breeding will "improve the breed". My putting dogs on the ground which will help if they are bred with, and by producing happy healthy pets which others admire and covet I think the labelling which has come to us from overseas is set to sink us all. You do what you want to do. If you show and win, you are probably sleeping with the judge, if you show and lose, your dogs are no good. If you don't show, you are a puppy farmer or a byb. So, it doesn't matter what you do, you will be labelled. What you do is NOT label others, and ignore the labelling/ Know that you are all in it together, and try to be supportive of others - even if they bad mouth you. IMHO, a smile is the best answer to -- everything!! As you go, you will make more and better friends - true friends. On one hand, people say I am a byb, on the other, my friends are successful exhibitors, and all breed judges. But - this pre supposes that you undersand the standard for your breed, and know the extension to the standard inside out, that you have looked closely at the top dogs of the breed, and that you had a friends or a mentor who will assess your pups and give you honest critiques on them, that you will know enought to use SUITABLE dogs, not necessarily your own, and not necessarily champion dogs, but dogs which will imrpove what you have ---- and that you have enough knowledge to know what is what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I have no experience with breeding, but if I was going to buy a dog I would expect it to either be shown, OR have working titled. Being shown isn't a requirement for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 It is up to the individual. Showing does not mean a person produces great dogs & not showing does not mean a person produces inferior dogs. I show my cats but not my dogs. Having said that sorting out 2 days ago I found 8 ribbons from dog shows, so did a bit. There is more to breeding a good dog than it looking like the show standard & performing well in the ring. The more you breed the more you start noticing things, checking back on things & finding out as much as possible about the dogs in your dogs background. This is not always easy but its incredibly interesting. You also realise that genes do not always perform as expected. If you do not show I think you need to attend shows & learn how your breed should look. Develop an eye for type & style. Depends on what your personal goals & aims are. I think it is rare for people to start out & everything go perfect. It is a constant learning curve. Sometimes you can put 2 fabulous dogs together & get an ordinary or bad result. Other times you put the Plain Jane to a good dog & its wonderful. Some good matings end tragically. It is recognising this, dealing with it & being ultra critical of yourself/pups/dogs that makes you get it right. There is no perfect formula. Feedback from owners down the track is a big help & knowing life span, health & any issues of any kind back in the lines, if you can find out, is actually much more useful than how many won in the ring. For me showing my cats is just the icing on the cake & a nice day out. It covers the beauty part. The health, personality behaviour, whelping, mating ability/ease, lifespan & most important enjoying & caring for them is the interesting part. Showing a poodle is a bit much on my body now, older all that lugging & setting up tents etc & coping with extreme weather & keeping dog seperate so coat isn't trashed. However I still try & breed to standard. Perfectionist tendencies You will get varying opinions to your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I would think it would be hard to get foundation stock if you didn't intend to show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I would think it would be hard to get foundation stock if you didn't intend to show. It could also depend on whether you are breeding for show or performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) I think you can breed and not show, BUT! You need to be the type of person that keeps up with what is happening within their breed, they need to read research and read some more. They need to have knowledgable mentors and friends who can give an unbiased opinion on their dogs but most of all they need to posses the ability to see the flaws and weaknesses within their own dogs and bloodlines. I go to the very odd show because I enjoy it but due to a young family and distance it doesn't happen often. Maybe down the track I will do more. I think I am more critical of my dogs than others are. I keep as up to date as I can and make sure I ask questions and listen to the answers. Edited March 5, 2011 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myValkyrie Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I would think it would be hard to get foundation stock if you didn't intend to show. It could also depend on whether you are breeding for show or performance. Definately - & your signature says it all Janba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I don't believe showing and breeding are mutually exclusive. Some people love showing, some don't.There was no problem until about 20 years ago, when animal rights (direct from US) told us that if we bred more than one litter every 2 years, or we did not breed to produce further show stock for ourselves, we were some kind of puppy farmer. Sometimes I show, sometimes I don't. I show when I feel like it. I don't give a rats rectum whether people label me a "puppy farmer" or a byb. That is their choice. I don't breed many - my choice - I breed less than I used to, and I admit to a certain gratification when people who look down on me are beaten by a dog I bred - usually in other ownership. I love it when dogs I bred win 29 point challenges, or specialties, or royals. I breed dogs which do win from dogs which have never been shown. The people who know me know who and what I am, and that is all that matters. I don't care about the others. I don't have a website, I don't advertise. It's not about being a person who is known as successful from my own advertising or their website. It is about having the dogs, caring for them, and producing litters, having that pleasure, and hoping my breeding will "improve the breed". My putting dogs on the ground which will help if they are bred with, and by producing happy healthy pets which others admire and covet I think the labelling which has come to us from overseas is set to sink us all. ***************************** Thankyou Jed! I think it actualy benefits a breed to have people not breeding for the show ring. One reason being that show ring and the markets catering for the show ring are both influenced by fads. you will get breeders rushing to buy and breed the colour or type that is currently winning regardless of real overall quality,and this will often bring overall quality of stock down and reduces the availability of lines able to prove themselves in the meantime. Shouldn't happen,but does more than most people realise and valuable lines or qualities can be lost for good. A good breeder as Jed says should take the time to understand what they are trying to acheive and best way to get there,be honest and critical of their dogs etc. I.M.H.O a serious breeder who researches constantly should have the confidence to buck trends and go their own way even if they know their dogs are unlikely to win in the ring at the present time.The future may say different. With temperament and health (and I put conformation under health too) always paramount. IMO genuine knowlege of what you are doing and confidence in its rightness,able to be backed with logic would impress me more than show results. Of course,if the ultimate goal is to win in the show ring,it matters. Oops! did my post 1/2 way through Jeds! *********************** You do what you want to do. If you show and win, you are probably sleeping with the judge, if you show and lose, your dogs are no good. If you don't show, you are a puppy farmer or a byb. So, it doesn't matter what you do, you will be labelled. What you do is NOT label others, and ignore the labelling/ Know that you are all in it together, and try to be supportive of others - even if they bad mouth you. IMHO, a smile is the best answer to -- everything!! As you go, you will make more and better friends - true friends. On one hand, people say I am a byb, on the other, my friends are successful exhibitors, and all breed judges. But - this pre supposes that you undersand the standard for your breed, and know the extension to the standard inside out, that you have looked closely at the top dogs of the breed, and that you had a friends or a mentor who will assess your pups and give you honest critiques on them, that you will know enought to use SUITABLE dogs, not necessarily your own, and not necessarily champion dogs, but dogs which will imrpove what you have ---- and that you have enough knowledge to know what is what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Oops, sorry moosemum!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florise Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 You can breed if you don't show, but IMO you would only be getting a fraction of the whole experience and doing yourself and your breeding program a disservice if you don't at least go along and watch. Some people here seem to be of the opinion that showing is just ribbons and titles, but it is about so much more than that. It's also about learning amongst peers, socialising with like minded people, networking, watching the best of them moving, and on the stack, and getting your hands on dogs from other lines - all on a regular basis. There is only so much you can learn in your own backyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Q Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Yes, but I think you should have a plan in mind towards what you are breeding for and you need to be bettering the breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 No, definitely not a requirement. I am looking at getting a puppy from working lines and none of the breeders I've looked at show their dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 You can breed if you don't show, but IMO you would only be getting a fraction of the whole experience and doing yourself and your breeding program a disservice if you don't at least go along and watch. Some people here seem to be of the opinion that showing is just ribbons and titles, but it is about so much more than that. It's also about learning amongst peers, socialising with like minded people, networking, watching the best of them moving, and on the stack, and getting your hands on dogs from other lines - all on a regular basis. There is only so much you can learn in your own backyard. I agree with this, tho' would extend it to participation in some form of performance sport that includes serious peer review and participation. If you're not out among the best and rest of your breed in some way, then I think it's a rather risky prospect to be breeding. Showing/performance doesn't have to take over your life - I know people who show more selectively than others but they still get amongst it, particularly at Specialities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I would never encourage indiscriminate breeding, but show is neither the only, nor, for some purposes, the 'best' way to discriminate. Yes . . .of course you can breed without showing. As a human, you can have sex and reproduce without enduring the cat walk. With dogs we don't generally accept 'love' as a basis for mating . . . and it's good if sire and dam are coupled with an eye to good health and desired temperament and conformational traits. Show culture is corrupt in a lot of ways [eg, if the dog with the most perfect conformation belongs to someone who doesn't like to show or isn't able, that dog will never get titled. . . .while a show nut can title any half decent dog]. Showing should not be THE ONE AND ONLY criterion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I am not at all interested in showing, and couldn't care less if the breeder I buy from shows. Having said that, I think there's no point in breeding if you don't test the quality of your dogs in some manner - whether by competition or by work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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