Ear Cropping

[OSoSwift]

removing a flap of skin on the ear you dont remove cartilage as you need that to retain the structure of the remaining ear.

There is cartlidge through the entire ear it isn't just skin so you do cut through and remove cartlidge.

[Nekhbet]

I meant the main structural cartilage of the outer ear that helps hold ears in position in both cropped and uncropped dogs - the degree and thickness of other cartilage throughout the ear will be breed dependant eg something like the Malinois radars will have a thicker and more prevalent cartilage layer throughout the entire outer ear structure then many cropped breeds like Dobermanns, Schnauzers, Baucearons etc. Cartilage is a non-vascular elastic structure made primarily of collagen and has no nerves in it. The skin itself on the outer ear as many of you know is well vascularised (anyone who has had to deal with a harmatoma will realise this) but you will also know how well dogs deal with ears that have been sliced and drained then sewn back together after a massive injury or haematoma. Many dogs easily walk around with torn ears and dont give them a second thought. Having cropping done early would not be any more different. This same thin skin though can predispose them to easy bleeding, frostbite, haematomas or infections from constant injury.

I would rather my dog go through an ear cropping then an abodominal surgery at the same age.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Nekhbet

[jacqui835]

I meant the main structural cartilage of the outer ear that helps hold ears in position in both cropped and uncropped dogs - the degree and thickness of other cartilage throughout the ear will be breed dependant eg something like the Malinois radars will have a thicker and more prevalent cartilage layer throughout the entire outer ear structure then many cropped breeds like Dobermanns, Schnauzers, Baucearons etc. Cartilage is a non-vascular elastic structure made primarily of collagen and has no nerves in it. The skin itself on the outer ear as many of you know is well vascularised (anyone who has had to deal with a harmatoma will realise this) but you will also know how well dogs deal with ears that have been sliced and drained then sewn back together after a massive injury or haematoma. Many dogs easily walk around with torn ears and dont give them a second thought. Having cropping done early would not be any more different. This same thin skin though can predispose them to easy bleeding, frostbite, haematomas or infections from constant injury.

I would rather my dog go through an ear cropping then an abodominal surgery at the same age.

Completely agree.

Additionally, aside from health and hygiene reasons, dogs with upright ears can hear better than dogs with eternally floppy ears, as the ears are meant to be mobile and able to finely point the direction from which a sound originates. We selectively bred for cuteness and forced most dogs today to live with floppy ears, constantly bashing against the sides of their heads and getting itchy. I've had dogs with floppy ears and dogs with erect ears, and despite regularly cleaning the floppy eared ones, they still always noticeably scratch their ears more than the ones with upright ears. They also tend to get a funky smell if you don't clean them. Floppy ears are unnatural, you won't see any adult wild animal with them...

As a doberman lover, I too plan to one day import a dog with cropped ears. Sure I think they look beautiful, but I also think my floppy eared current dobe is the most beautiful dog out there. I want a dog with upright ears for the health and functional reasons. I like his long tail because he seems to use it. That said, now that dogs are no longer being docked, hopefully more focus will go into producing dogs with proper tails that aren't so liable to damage from every day activities. The current boxer tail is pretty shocking - I've seen so many broken. bleeding ones, so at this point in time I would argue that it's probably a lot kinder to the animals to have them removed before they can feel pain.

[Odin-Genie]

Additionally, aside from health and hygiene reasons, dogs with upright ears can hear better than dogs with eternally floppy ears, as the ears are meant to be mobile and able to finely point the direction from which a sound originates. We selectively bred for cuteness and forced most dogs today to live with floppy ears, constantly bashing against the sides of their heads and getting itchy. I've had dogs with floppy ears and dogs with erect ears, and despite regularly cleaning the floppy eared ones, they still always noticeably scratch their ears more than the ones with upright ears. They also tend to get a funky smell if you don't clean them. Floppy ears are unnatural, you won't see any adult wild animal with them...

As a doberman lover, I too plan to one day import a dog with cropped ears. Sure I think they look beautiful, but I also think my floppy eared current dobe is the most beautiful dog out there. I want a dog with upright ears for the health and functional reasons. I like his long tail because he seems to use it. That said, now that dogs are no longer being docked, hopefully more focus will go into producing dogs with proper tails that aren't so liable to damage from every day activities. The current boxer tail is pretty shocking - I've seen so many broken. bleeding ones, so at this point in time I would argue that it's probably a lot kinder to the animals to have them removed before they can feel pain.

If that is the case and these dogs are structurally faulty in their natural state, why is that standard recognised as the breed standard? ANKC recognises both floppy and erect ears in Dobermans, as well as docked and undocked tails. Shouldn't dog shows stop accepting faulty features? Shouldn't the breeders work towards removing these faults from their lines to improve the breed instead of conforming to the breed standard (which, without surgery, would have floppy ears)?

I don't buy the argument that non-working dogs have cropped ears due to health reasons. It is a purely cosmetic procedure for non-working dogs. If the health reason was paramount, we would see Golden Retrievers with cropped ears. No one does that because it doesn't look good!!!

Edited March 7, 2011 by Odin-Genie

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Boston Terriers have naturally upright ears but their ears are still cropped in the USA. I don't know why they get cropped because their erect ear and the cropped ear are not much different

cropped

not cropped

[OSoSwift]

Three Dobes and two Rotti's all natural ears, not one ear issue......

[Remarkabull]

4 Dobes and a number of X bred dogs with floppy ears and no health issues with any of them.

Also no guarantee that it will end up a nice job. I have seen plenty of pics of dogs with butchered ears and there is no fixing it once it has gone wrong.

[Nekhbet]

that is a show crop which many breeds have ie the tall skinny crop from the US

In Europe they leave a 'bell' at the bottom to add structure and substance to the cropped ear

I prefer dogs to have a short or utility crop, no flopping, less injuries, and looks good

4 Dobes and a number of X bred dogs with floppy ears and no health issues with any of them.

remember in the traditional context this process had a reason. How many of your dogs were hunters or full time workers?

[Jed]

Odin-Genie

If the health reason was paramount, we would see Golden Retrievers with cropped ears

No, retrievers ears would not be cropped, as the ear leather falling over the canal muffles the sound of the guns. Other spaniels which work closer to the guns have longer and thicker ears because they are exposed to more noise. Most retrievers/pointers/setters who were bred to work in the field do have "floppy" ears for exactly the same reason. And they would never be cropped.

To the op - sometimes, despite the best attention, best vets, experienced owners, the cropping doesn't work, so the dog has one cropped upright ear and one fallen down ear. Or two fallen down ears. Many would be show dogs are not able to be shown because the crop didn't work. And there is no remedy

Not an operation for the faint hearted, and an operation which can go badly wrong.

I find it amusing that in photos of show Danes the owner often holds the ears up, and exhibitors do it in the ring too.

[Kavik]

I meant the main structural cartilage of the outer ear that helps hold ears in position in both cropped and uncropped dogs - the degree and thickness of other cartilage throughout the ear will be breed dependant eg something like the Malinois radars will have a thicker and more prevalent cartilage layer throughout the entire outer ear structure then many cropped breeds like Dobermanns, Schnauzers, Baucearons etc. Cartilage is a non-vascular elastic structure made primarily of collagen and has no nerves in it. The skin itself on the outer ear as many of you know is well vascularised (anyone who has had to deal with a harmatoma will realise this) but you will also know how well dogs deal with ears that have been sliced and drained then sewn back together after a massive injury or haematoma. Many dogs easily walk around with torn ears and dont give them a second thought. Having cropping done early would not be any more different. This same thin skin though can predispose them to easy bleeding, frostbite, haematomas or infections from constant injury.

I would rather my dog go through an ear cropping then an abodominal surgery at the same age.

Completely agree.

Additionally, aside from health and hygiene reasons, dogs with upright ears can hear better than dogs with eternally floppy ears, as the ears are meant to be mobile and able to finely point the direction from which a sound originates. We selectively bred for cuteness and forced most dogs today to live with floppy ears, constantly bashing against the sides of their heads and getting itchy. I've had dogs with floppy ears and dogs with erect ears, and despite regularly cleaning the floppy eared ones, they still always noticeably scratch their ears more than the ones with upright ears. They also tend to get a funky smell if you don't clean them. Floppy ears are unnatural, you won't see any adult wild animal with them...

As a doberman lover, I too plan to one day import a dog with cropped ears. Sure I think they look beautiful, but I also think my floppy eared current dobe is the most beautiful dog out there. I want a dog with upright ears for the health and functional reasons. I like his long tail because he seems to use it. That said, now that dogs are no longer being docked, hopefully more focus will go into producing dogs with proper tails that aren't so liable to damage from every day activities. The current boxer tail is pretty shocking - I've seen so many broken. bleeding ones, so at this point in time I would argue that it's probably a lot kinder to the animals to have them removed before they can feel pain.

The only dog I've had with chronic ear problems is my current GSD - who has naturally pricked ears.

[Miranda]

Additionally, aside from health and hygiene reasons, dogs with upright ears can hear better than dogs with eternally floppy ears, as the ears are meant to be mobile and able to finely point the direction from which a sound originates. We selectively bred for cuteness and forced most dogs today to live with floppy ears, constantly bashing against the sides of their heads and getting itchy. I've had dogs with floppy ears and dogs with erect ears, and despite regularly cleaning the floppy eared ones, they still always noticeably scratch their ears more than the ones with upright ears. They also tend to get a funky smell if you don't clean them. Floppy ears are unnatural, you won't see any adult wild animal with them...

What a load of rubbish, I have six dogs here all with floppy ears, none of them scratch and none of them have dirty or smelly ears. I have owned many, many dogs with floppy ears and only two of them had ear problems.

None of them have any problems with their hearing either.

BTW dogs were bred with floppy ears for a reason, it has nothing to do with selectively breeding for 'cuteness'

[fuzzy82]

I think ear cropping is ridiculous, why not just breed the dogs with upright ears instead of breeding them with floppy ears and then mauling them to get the look you want. Personally I think boxers and dobes look heaps better with floppy ears, and I like rotties to have tails.

I heard a woman at the vet's talking to another guy in the waiting area last time we were there, the guy had commented on her older dog having a cropped tail, and she said she had a younger one at home with an intact tail and she didn't like it 'because it's just not the same' and his tail 'keeps hitting me when he wags it'. Yeah, good reason to cut off a dogs tail, wouldn't want it to hit you when he wags it!!

Personally I think I prefer upright ears on dogs, I like that they can move around the way they were meant to, but I have a poodle x with floppy ears and it has never occurred to me to cut them off to 'improve' her looks.

[Nekhbet]

Personally I think I prefer upright ears on dogs, I like that they can move around the way they were meant to, but I have a poodle x with floppy ears and it has never occurred to me to cut them off to 'improve' her looks.

but did you desex the dog so you didnt have to put in the effort to contain her properly during seasons?

Whats the difference

I heard a woman at the vet's talking to another guy in the waiting area last time we were there, the guy had commented on her older dog having a cropped tail, and she said she had a younger one at home with an intact tail and she didn't like it 'because it's just not the same' and his tail 'keeps hitting me when he wags it'. Yeah, good reason to cut off a dogs tail, wouldn't want it to hit you when he wags it!!

I dont like my rotties tail either - I wish he was docked. Its thin, crappy and keeps being injured.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Remarkabull]

that is a show crop which many breeds have ie the tall skinny crop from the US

In Europe they leave a 'bell' at the bottom to add structure and substance to the cropped ear

I prefer dogs to have a short or utility crop, no flopping, less injuries, and looks good

4 Dobes and a number of X bred dogs with floppy ears and no health issues with any of them.

remember in the traditional context this process had a reason. How many of your dogs were hunters or full time workers?

None, but I was saying it in reference to another poster saying that they had heard that 'floppy' ears can mean more smell and infections etc. Just saying that none of my dogs have ever had that problem even though they have floppy ears. Personally I like the way the cropped ears look, but would not do it to any of my dogs because in this day and age it is not necessary and is simply for the vanity of the owner.

ETA Actually one of my dogs is a retired pig dog (been a while so I tend to forget) and from all of the hunting dogs I have known of none of them have had injuries to their ears.

Edited March 8, 2011 by dobesrock

[sas]

My natural eared Danes have no ear infection issues or anything like that.

They were Boar hunters and their ears were cropped to prevent them from being injured.

Surgery for cosmetic purposes on animals is not something I agree with and therefore do not agree with cropping Great Dane ears...more and more Danes in America are being left natural now even in the show ring which I think is great.

[OSoSwift]

but did you desex the dog so you didnt have to put in the effort to contain her properly during seasons?

Whats the difference

Dogs ears don't breed up! Dogs uterus's do. I do not think the argument is even remotely the same.

My bitch is entire but I would not expect the average owner to keep an entire bitch just because, and having a uterus is of far more consequence and potential danger than floppy ears.

[Nekhbet]

Dogs ears don't breed up! Dogs uterus's do. I do not think the argument is even remotely the same.

My bitch is entire but I would not expect the average owner to keep an entire bitch just because, and having a uterus is of far more consequence and potential danger than floppy ears.

My point is, it's a much larger and dangerous surgery then nicking off some ears. It's just that we've bought into the hype and consider it some minor procedure done just because we should, or we just can't deal with the fact it's effort to have to train a male dog or contain a bitch.

I'm not being argumetitive for no reason, but do you see the point when people throw out the 'oh its a painful, barbaric act!'. Watch a bitch spey and see which is really the more complicated, painful surgery. As for having a uterus being dangerous ... a natural part of the animals growth and development is really that dangerous? Really? If cutting out a uterus or testicles is done as a preventitive, then why is docking and cropping for the same reason so horrible?

[fuzzy82]

But docking and cropping are NOT done as a preventative, they are done because they 'look good'. And it was originally done for looks, not as a preventative. I know people with boxers and dobes that don't have any trouble with their tails or ears, so just because someone has one that keeps injuring its tail doesn't mean they should ALL be docked. My cat keeps injuring her tail too, but I'm not gonna have it cut off.

If you really hate the tails and ears so much, breed them differently. Breed for strong tails that don't get injured as easily (even though I am not convinced that their tails are more easily injured, it could be an individual thing that SOME dogs are more prone to tail injuries regardless of breed) and breed for upright ears. Why breed for floppy ears and then have them cut off? Wouldn't you want to avoid cutting off body parts if you can?

[Nekhbet]

But docking and cropping are NOT done as a preventative, they are done because they 'look good'. And it was originally done for looks, not as a preventative.

Read up on history ... it was actually. Many breeds are not cropped or docked the same way because there was a purpose to it - many terriers done so their tail was a handle and not broken when hunting down holes etc.

If you really hate the tails and ears so much, breed them differently. Breed for strong tails that don't get injured as easily (even though I am not convinced that their tails are more easily injured, it could be an individual thing that SOME dogs are more prone to tail injuries regardless of breed) and breed for upright ears. Why breed for floppy ears and then have them cut off?

So many generations of traditionally cropped and docked breeds cannot be changed overnight. You're not convinced - how much do you actually know about dogs? My rottweilers tail is nothing but vertebrate. Its thin, boney, too long and whip like. He's ripped off the tip because there's no meat there to protect it at all. Many Dobermanns have a similar problem. Some breeds dont even carry the genes for tail shape/ear setting - it was never an issue before so no one worried about it. The point was traditionally it didnt matter (mostly) what the ear/tail quality was like because they were removed anyway.

Wouldn't you want to avoid cutting off body parts if you can?

I still ask what your stand on desexing is then. Like I asked before what makes on procedure so much more palatable to the masses (Despite being an overall more painfull and dangerous one) then the others - one done at a couple of days old when nerves are not well formed and another at a young age when the ears are still soft.

[Odin-Genie]

Odin-Genie

If the health reason was paramount, we would see Golden Retrievers with cropped ears

No, retrievers ears would not be cropped, as the ear leather falling over the canal muffles the sound of the guns. Other spaniels which work closer to the guns have longer and thicker ears because they are exposed to more noise. Most retrievers/pointers/setters who were bred to work in the field do have "floppy" ears for exactly the same reason. And they would never be cropped.

Agree. I think there are valid reasons for cropping ears and docking tails when these dogs are working. Just as you pointed out the reasons for floppy ears in the gun dogs.

However, my point was about non-working dogs. If people crop the ears of dobes etc for health reasons, even when they are not working, then the same logic should apply to non-working GRs as well.

Some dogs do look better with cropped ears and some don't. My issue is with the statement that people crop their non-working dogs' ears for health reasons when it is actually to improve their looks.