Long Lived Dogs

[shortstep]

Longevity is a subject that keeps popping up as it relates to breeding and selection.

We will often hear that inbreeding affects longevity in negative ways. I am trying to form an opinion on that subject, so when reading some studies on inbreeding and longevity this morning, I bumped into this.

Doberman Pinscher Club of America Longevity Program

http://www.dpca.org/Longevty/longevity/index.html

This is an open health databank registry of sorts, dogs can be listed if they lived to 10 years of age, or they have parents that lived to 10 years of age. You can track them by having generations of long lived dogs too, 1 2 or 3. Meaning that if the dog had 1 or 2 or 3 generations of dogs that lived to age 10 or older you sort them out of the data. Dogs have owners and ID info.

I need to read more about this and what else if anything they are doing with this information. But I would also assume that this information can be entered into an EBV program for the breed and used as part of an over all system to help make breeding selection choices.

Any comments on this?

Would you in general like to see something like for most breeds?

As a pet owner, would you be interested in obtaining your pet from a breeder that was making an effort to breed longer lived dogs and possibly using a system like this that you could review on your pup?

As a breeder, would breeding for longer lived dogs be something that takes a high priority place in your selection process?

Would a system like this be helpful to you? (I did note that you can list Australian dogs on this one, but did not see a search that would allow you to only pull out OZ dogs, not sureif anyone from OZ is using it).

Do you think the whole thing is just rubbish?

Edited March 3, 2011 by shortstep

[jacqui835]

Certainly sounds interesting. It was a huge factor for me. I had my last dog until he was 15 (a medium sized mixed breed) and that felt too short, so when I decided to get a large breed, I was determined to find one that would hopefully see well past their 10th b'day. I spent 3 years looking for a doberman and visiting breeders, and I was very upset to find several breeders who claimed anything over 7 in a doberman was excellent. I had nearly given up, when I found my breeder (to be fair I didn't know of this site back then and finding breeders wasn't easy). She had dogs that were 11 and still running around and combined with the fact that she bred true to the standard in temperament as well as looks (many of the dobe breeders also told me that their dobes were merely labradors in dobe clothing), this made her the perfect breeder for me.

I am not a puppy person. I buy puppies so I can raise them they way I want, but I enjoy my dogs most after they're at least 1-2 years old, maybe even older, so longevity is very important to me.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I would totally like to know dogs are being bred for longevity.

One of the issues though is that it can't just be breeding that affects longevity. Nutrition and health care plays a big part as well.

There are many parts to this one part being the breeding however, IMO if the breeding isn't there then no amount of health care and nutrition will help.

[OSoSwift]

I most certainly would like to know that breeding for longevity is important for a breeder, however I want my dogs sound enough so they live a long time as pain free and mobile as possible and have good cognative ability. No point them living to 16 if they can barely move and have no idea what is going on.

I have had Dobermann's.

www.dobepac.com has Dobes from all over and they have a longevity thing built into the dogs on their site. They have different coloured dots before their name that represent different things.

My first bitch lived until nearly 12 - she was tagged as having longevity

My second ( grandaughter of the first) was tagged as having longevity in her lines until she died at 8 and a half.

My young bitches dad died not long after 10 (not the same issue as her) and I have no idea how long her mum lived.

I was also told that a Dobe after the age of 8 was very old, which I think is rubbish. Having said that my older bitch was very old by the time she went, as in she had fairly extensive arthritis, some vision and hearing issues as well as a couple fo older things. If she had of lived another few years then I think it would have been to much for her.

Longevity is affected by other issues such as genetic diseases, so I think once the genetic issues are better controlled and reduced then the age of the Dobe will increase naturally. The problem of course being that with some there is no black and white answer and it isn't as simple as a test, a result and then including or removing from the gene pool.

Also as mentioned nutrition and care also affects longevity.

Edited March 4, 2011 by OSoSwift

[shortstep]

I would totally like to know dogs are being bred for longevity.

One of the issues though is that it can't just be breeding that affects longevity. Nutrition and health care plays a big part as well.

There are many parts to this one part being the breeding however, IMO if the breeding isn't there then no amount of health care and nutrition will help.

Yes I can see what you mean.

Dogs can die from all sorts of reasons, even reasons that have nothing to do with health such as being hit by a car. I think as with everything in dog breeding, you have to take it all into consideration. I am not sure I would be quick to excuse a dog that dies early and the cause is blamed on cheap dog food or their was air pollution or so forth. These days that is in many cases a part of life, and dogs can do live to rip old age under those conditions. Some dogs may have genes that allow them to cope better with less than perfect conditions and in fact that could be something that we want to select for over the long term in a breed. Lots to think about eh?

However if you find that a dog has multiple generations that are living to rip old age for their breed, and for some breeds this could 15 years or more. Then what you can conclude is nothing killed this dog before rip old age. That has to be a general positive for the dog, and when you can see that several generations lived to rip old age, then in my mind it is showing a trend towards long lived dogs that did not die early in life.

I think looking at the common causes of death in a breeds would also make this more useful. For example in a breed that may die of cancers in mid life, then seeing a pedigree with many ancestors that did not die in mid life, is a positive for the dog. They may still have died of cancer but at least the lived past the most common age of onset and death, or it could also indicated that they did not get cancer at all. I did notice with this program that when a dog dies you can send in the date/age and the cause of death. This would really be useful for understanding exactly what was going on and to pick up on trends. What would be even more useful is if you can find siblings of the dogs you are looking at and get their information to build lateral pedigrees for longevity. Eh? That sounds really good!

[shortstep]

Longevity is affected by other issues such as genetic diseases, so I think once the genetic issues are better controlled and reduced then the age of the Dobe will increase naturally. The problem of course being that with some there is no black and white answer and it isn't as simple as a test, a result and then including or removing from the gene pool.

Actually the most common thinking in the scientific community today is moving in the opposite direction.

This is because we have no way to prevent most genetic disease and it will likely be many many human lifetimes before we are able to do more than chase genetic diseases down, rather then design genetic health from the onset.

Instead of trying to chase what is already there and then try to take it out, or placing so much emphasis in slection of what dogs to breed by the use of tests which we already know can prevent those diseases, so those disease should be taken off the priority list of concerns and yes Sheridan I do mean to do those tests if warranted. Also if finding each disease's DNA error and making a test is to be the answer to controlling disease in dogs, then how many tests can we do on a dog we might want to breed? Dogs have over 300 genetic diseases!

So it makes sense that we have to look at this from a different angle if we ever want to have a real impact. Instead work from the other direction. Seek out dogs that have long lives, low incidences of needing vet care, don't need medications, have longevity in their work such as a sheep dog that work well into later life, or a professional lap warmer that can still find it's way to your lap unassisted at 14 years of age, there are heaps more indicators that could be used. All of these things would help point to dogs that already have what was needed to live a long high quality lives.

At least that is the thinking, I am not saying it works, but it does sound logical to me and I feel worth exploring.

Edited March 4, 2011 by shortstep

[OSoSwift]

Yes true, but it is very hard to breed from a 14 year old bitch, so whilst you could breed from her pups and grand pups, she may never have had any in the first place?

[shortstep]

Yes true, but it is very hard to breed from a 14 year old bitch, so whilst you could breed from her pups and grand pups, she may never have had any in the first place?

But that is not a reason to abandon the idea, it is one area of weakness. Which is why the multigenerational pattern of old age behind the bitch is so important. If the bitch in question has generations of dogs that did not live to old age, perhaps we might decide that she must only be bred to a male that has exceptional longevity for several generations, he himself is already older and also does not have any family history of what ever caused the early deaths behind that bitch. The fact that you cannot wait to breed a bitch until she has reached old age, it still leaves lots of room for useful work regarding longevity.

You can wait to use male dogs until the are older.

Edited March 4, 2011 by shortstep

[Gayle.]

My Lhasa Apso (not purebred) died recently at 17. In her lifetime, I had a baby, got divorced, remarried, re-entered the workforce, saw three kids to adulthood, bought, lived in and sold a few houses, changed careers, changed lifestyles.

That's a LOT in one dogs lifetime, and it went by in the blink of an eye. My current dogs, if going by the breed average.....are likely to live to 12-14. Benson is already 4, where did those 4 years go? It seems like only yesterday he was a ball of black and tan fluff, now he's all grown up, gorgeous and sensible. That could be one third of his life already passed.

To be able to choose dogs that are genetically disposed to live long and healthy lives would be wonderful. I would love to own one or two of the bigger breeds but won't because of their inherently short lifespan. I couldn't fathom a dog being old at 8, that should be the prime of their life.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

My Lhasa Apso (not purebred) died recently at 17. In her lifetime, I had a baby, got divorced, remarried, re-entered the workforce, saw three kids to adulthood, bought, lived in and sold a few houses, changed careers, changed lifestyles.

That's a LOT in one dogs lifetime, and it went by in the blink of an eye. My current dogs, if going by the breed average.....are likely to live to 12-14. Benson is already 4, where did those 4 years go? It seems like only yesterday he was a ball of black and tan fluff, now he's all grown up, gorgeous and sensible. That could be one third of his life already passed.

To be able to choose dogs that are genetically disposed to live long and healthy lives would be wonderful. I would love to own one or two of the bigger breeds but won't because of their inherently short lifespan. I couldn't fathom a dog being old at 8, that should be the prime of their life.

Gayle that is exactly what I think.

[koalathebear]

This is a very thought-provoking topic. While I agree that quality of life is very important (so I wouldn't my dogs hanging around for years and years when they were miserable and in pain) but I am hopeful that my Kelpie cross and Kelpie will be able to have long-ish, healthy lives. I was horrified to read that Bernese Mountain Dogs have a lifespan of about 7-8 years and that a large number die of cancer - that seems like far too short a lifespan

Aside from genetic disorders that are common in certain breeds, is there are reason why many larger breeds have a shorter lifespan? Are there any large breeds who are long-lived?

[stormie]

This is a very thought-provoking topic. While I agree that quality of life is very important (so I wouldn't my dogs hanging around for years and years when they were miserable and in pain) but I am hopeful that my Kelpie cross and Kelpie will be able to have long-ish, healthy lives. I was horrified to read that Bernese Mountain Dogs have a lifespan of about 7-8 years and that a large number die of cancer - that seems like far too short a lifespan

Aside from genetic disorders that are common in certain breeds, is there are reason why many larger breeds have a shorter lifespan? Are there any large breeds who are long-lived?

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it has something to do with their organs etc working harder due to their size? Being the 'extreme' of their species, things wear out quicker?

They start of small and grow rapidly to a size much bigger than they started - perhaps that's somehow relevant?

But then with that theory, it doesn't make sense as to why larger parrots live longer than smaller parrots.

[dancinbcs]

This is a very thought-provoking topic. While I agree that quality of life is very important (so I wouldn't my dogs hanging around for years and years when they were miserable and in pain) but I am hopeful that my Kelpie cross and Kelpie will be able to have long-ish, healthy lives. I was horrified to read that Bernese Mountain Dogs have a lifespan of about 7-8 years and that a large number die of cancer - that seems like far too short a lifespan

Aside from genetic disorders that are common in certain breeds, is there are reason why many larger breeds have a shorter lifespan? Are there any large breeds who are long-lived?

As a general rule the larger the dog the shorter the lifspan and the smaller the dog the longer the lifespan. Most breeds pretty well conform to this with the littlies living to their late teens, medium breeds making their mid teens and giant breeds rarely making it much past about 10. The weight of the breed seems more signifcant than the height with Danes living longer than Mastiffs for example.

I really don't think longevity studies would make much difference to most breeds that fit what is considered normal for their size. Trying to add a year or two of old age onto their lives seems rather pointless. I much prefer to worry about their quality of life than how long they live but do expect most of mine to make at least 13-14 before they start to really turn into old dogs.

Some large breeds however seem to have an average shorter lifespan than the giant breeds and in those breeds I can see the need for more studies. Dobes, Boxers, Bernese to name a few do seem to have realtively short lives compared to bigger breeds.

[shortstep]

I really don't think longevity studies would make much difference to most breeds that fit what is considered normal for their size. Trying to add a year or two of old age onto their lives seems rather pointless. I much prefer to worry about their quality of life than how long they live but do expect most of mine to make at least 13-14 before they start to really turn into old dogs.

Some large breeds however seem to have an average shorter lifespan than the giant breeds and in those breeds I can see the need for more studies. Dobes, Boxers, Bernese to name a few do seem to have realtively short lives compared to bigger breeds.

I think the purpose of breeding for longevity is potentially 2 fold, or perhaps you could say that the benefits could flow in 2 directions.

One is to breed for better overall health and this would directly involve the quality of life through out the life of the dog. If family longevity does improve the chances of the dog not getting a disease which shortens it's life, then this is certainly also improving the quality of it's life. For example a dog with crippling HD will live a shorter life and it will also be a short and painful life. A dog with heart disease will live a shorted life, and also a life that is not as active as it might have been and so on.

The second reason to breed for longevity is to improve expected lifespan. But this would be a secondary effect from preventing the causes that shortened life spans in that breed. Using the examples above, some of the large breed dogs die of cancer which ends their life prematurely. If breeding for longevity improves the chances of the dogs not getting that cancer or getting that cancer later in life, then it will increase the life span of the dog, as well as improve it's quality of life.

[Steve]

I dont remember the last time one of my dogs died before the age of 15 unless it was a snake bite or similar. Its nothing for my beagles and corgis to live late teens and the oldest Maremma I have here is 14 too. I havent bred all of them and while some are related many are not. Matilda died in her sleep at almost 22. I attribute that to many things as well as selection. Their diet, exercise, exposure to chemicals and stressors,even the geography of where they live etc

When you see a breed such as the neo's with an average life span of about 5 years you have to say its time this was looked at and I know one breeder who has been working like mad to select for dogs with an increased life span in this breed who is doing a great job and in that kennel its now way over the breed average and gets better every generation. Not so hard to see when its a very short life span you are watching but quite a task as the lifespan increases.

[LizT]

My Lhasa Apso (not purebred) died recently at 17. In her lifetime, I had a baby, got divorced, remarried, re-entered the workforce, saw three kids to adulthood, bought, lived in and sold a few houses, changed careers, changed lifestyles.

That's a LOT in one dogs lifetime, and it went by in the blink of an eye. My current dogs, if going by the breed average.....are likely to live to 12-14. Benson is already 4, where did those 4 years go? It seems like only yesterday he was a ball of black and tan fluff, now he's all grown up, gorgeous and sensible. That could be one third of his life already passed.

To be able to choose dogs that are genetically disposed to live long and healthy lives would be wonderful. I would love to own one or two of the bigger breeds but won't because of their inherently short lifespan. I couldn't fathom a dog being old at 8, that should be the prime of their life.

I too owned a Lhasa Apso X who lived to 17. He saw me go from partying young adult to mum and saw my partner of 19 years off as our marriage ended.

I also had a Miniature Poodle and a Schipperke both live to 17 and a I got a GSD when my son was two and he saw him grow up into a young man of 16 before he passed away.

Having Cavaliers now, longevity is something I would like to put emphasis on as I know this is not a breed that is well known for it. Whenever I hear of a long birthday milestones in the breed my heart lifts and I hope that this is something that we will see more and more of as we endeavour to breed from stock with good, no healthy, hearts (they all have good hearts, they're dogs!).

[moosmum]

I have Dobes and have been aware of the program you mention for a long time.

I thinks its an excellent idea,but of course has its limitations.

Of the dobes I have have owned,most have grown bigger than average and all have lived to 14.

I currently have an old girl here of 13,and very disapointed that she is unlikely to make 14 due to rapid deterioration caused by arthritis just in this last year.She has very little grey,eye sight is good still and hearing too. She is 28 inches and at 6 yrs was being mistaken for a 2-3 yo.

Her meds are helping though and she is more willing to get up,out and about lately so

I hope she suprises us with improved mobility as well.

One of her line I am told lived to 16.

My daughters male dobe at 9 still catches birds in the back yard.Another 8 yo bitch is just looking a little matronly but not yet "old" by any means.

Longevity is very important to me.Any goal to improve the lifespan of dogs is welcomed so long as quality of those last years isn't compromised.

My 1st dog was not a Dobe,but I got him at 11 years old.He was a part of my life till I was 27 years old with 3 children of my own and it still wasn't long enough.

Edited March 4, 2011 by moosmum

[OSoSwift]

I do agree that longevitiy (and concurrently good quality of life) are something that I do like.

That is one of the reasons why I went for Whippets after my Dobe. Also the fact there are far less hereditary diseases that plague them, unlike the Dobes. I do not own Dobes for a couple of reasons now, but the main one is with my last one my heart was broken, I just can't go there again for a long time, if ever.

And yes I do agree that using older males at stud is one way of helping longevity along.

[cointreau]

My Lhasa Apso (not purebred) died recently at 17. In her lifetime, I had a baby, got divorced, remarried, re-entered the workforce, saw three kids to adulthood, bought, lived in and sold a few houses, changed careers, changed lifestyles.

That's a LOT in one dogs lifetime, and it went by in the blink of an eye. My current dogs, if going by the breed average.....are likely to live to 12-14. Benson is already 4, where did those 4 years go? It seems like only yesterday he was a ball of black and tan fluff, now he's all grown up, gorgeous and sensible. That could be one third of his life already passed.

To be able to choose dogs that are genetically disposed to live long and healthy lives would be wonderful. I would love to own one or two of the bigger breeds but won't because of their inherently short lifespan. I couldn't fathom a dog being old at 8, that should be the prime of their life.

Gayle that is exactly what I think.

My last Dane was retired from breeding when I got her she died in my arms from a post surgical complication aged 11 years 8 months. Danes may not live to 17 years however with longevity you need to have quality of life and my old girl certainly had that until she died.

[Diva]

I have a large breed, and can reasonably expect them to get to 10. I hope they will get to 13. Anything over that is a blessing but they can go to 16. There has been some commentary on breed lists recently that would indicate that longevity is increasing, and ages like 14+ are becoming less exceptional. It's very heartening.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Diva