Bark Busters And Cesar Milan

[murve]

Why do you think it worked, murve?

Why do you think it wouldn't work...or why would you question it??

Just because you don't agree/like Cesar and his techniques, doesn't mean some of them won't help stop unwanted behaviours.

Excuse me. Did I say I thought it wouldn't work? I've spent half of this thread saying I think these methods DO often work. I just don't think they work for the reasons claimed. I was genuinely interested to know whether murve thought this was a case where it had worked for the reasons claimed or whether it worked for some other reason. It wasn't a loaded question.

Hey Corvus I took it light hearted , I was just giving an example, this poor Rottie we rescued looked like a greyhound when we got him, we had worked out he had been beaten to hell & back & he showed a lot of agression towards men ( we had no idea of his past when we took this boy on). My partner & I had done a lot of work him, now he is great but we may loose him soon, he has arthritis in his hips, well he is 9 yrs old

[Kavik]

But when they are working sheep, their reward is always there!

Yes, but when I say "good dog" she's always here... and yet if I offer her a treat she won't take it when sheep are there. I really need to take her back up the hill and try again.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but when a dog is working sheep, food is probably not a reinforcer - the opportunity to work sheep is. I would use that, if it's appropriate.

I agree with this.

[Vickie]

My training treats are all like the vending machine. It doesn't bother me. My dogs rarely have to go without rewards. I have never found this to have much of an effect on their reliability. If they don't get a reward they figure something must be broken and just kinda shrug it off as bizarre. They'll keep doing that for half an hour. Erik probably longer, but I've never tested it. He can find so many things rewarding I feel sure I could find something. Lots of fun tricks he likes doing.

I don't understand the above at all

what sort of behaviours are we talking about here?

How do you proof them? How do you train for distractions? how do you refine to differentiate between ok & brilliant? Are you saying you never set them up to fail in order to teach them how to succeed?

Are you intending on sticking through this for your agility training?

[JulesP]

But when they are working sheep, their reward is always there!

Yes, but when I say "good dog" she's always here... and yet if I offer her a treat she won't take it when sheep are there. I really need to take her back up the hill and try again.

Does anyone know how you find out if your dog eats ducks without losing a duck? I know she likes chasing them. Just not sure what happens if she actually catches up.

Not really sure what you are talking about with the sheep bit? I have actually used food in my herding, mainly to get the heel in off lead. My dog really prefers praise anyhow and she certainly is listening to that praise even when on sheep. I guess we are using a NRM in that if the dog isn't cooperating they don't get to have the sheep.

With ducks you go in on lead the first couple of times. Some rolled up newspapers might be handy and a good aim.

Edited March 8, 2011 by JulesP

[corvus]

My training treats are all like the vending machine. It doesn't bother me. My dogs rarely have to go without rewards. I have never found this to have much of an effect on their reliability. If they don't get a reward they figure something must be broken and just kinda shrug it off as bizarre. They'll keep doing that for half an hour. Erik probably longer, but I've never tested it. He can find so many things rewarding I feel sure I could find something. Lots of fun tricks he likes doing.

I don't understand the above at all

I am pretty sure I've been through this before at least twice. It's nothing controversial or heretical. I just reliably pay. That's all. I'm a sure bet. With a world full of potential reinforcers I don't see why I shouldn't pay whenever I can, which is nearly always. Doesn't mean I always pay with the same thing and the same amount, though. I'm a vending machine in that I cue, my dogs behave, and I reward. I don't generally bother with variable reward schedules. But I'm one of those vending machines that have graffiti all over the front so you can't quite see what you're going to get when you press the buttons. And sometimes I spit out extra coins instead of the goods.

Kelpie-i, this is not a BB or CM bashing thread. It was more a comment on possible misinformation being spread by trainers (and lay people, for that matter). I was careful to point out that I wasn't sure if it even was misinformation. It certainly does disturb me at face value, though. Does it disturb you? Why/why not? Am I right to feel disturbed by it in your opinion?

[m-j]

but I wonder if cost factors into people's choices, or just recommendations from others? Maybe it just comes down to exposure and advertising?

I think this is probably the reason why the lay person would choose these trainers. I went to an advertisng seminar a few years ago and one of the things I can remember from it was if you want to help your business grow don't just advertise, get in people's faces. This is one thing that both of these "business'" do. If you keep a high profile even those that don't need you at that moment will remember you when they do.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Aidan and Kavik

You're right about going and finding the herding instructor - that's what I meant by "another trip up the hill" because that's where she is - in "The (Adelaide) Hills".

And rewarding with more herding is definitely the best re-inforcer when we're herding. It's just she and I get a bit confused about what we're supposed to be doing, and lessons will help. And while she's very receptive to anything I say, she tends to stop completely, so - last lesson - definitely better when I kept my mouth shut and let the instructor do all the talking.

I'm fine herding sheep without a (very excited) dog. Sigh.

I think for me - is figuring out what payment I need to do when, ie this morning, she was fine with being released to go play again with the other dogs at the park. Didn't want a treat.

Corvus

How do you chain behaviours together if you always pay for each one?

[Vickie]

My training treats are all like the vending machine. It doesn't bother me. My dogs rarely have to go without rewards. I have never found this to have much of an effect on their reliability. If they don't get a reward they figure something must be broken and just kinda shrug it off as bizarre. They'll keep doing that for half an hour. Erik probably longer, but I've never tested it. He can find so many things rewarding I feel sure I could find something. Lots of fun tricks he likes doing.

I don't understand the above at all

I am pretty sure I've been through this before at least twice.

maybe, but you still didn't answer my questions. Never mind.

[corvus]

I am pretty sure I've been through this before at least twice.

maybe, but you still didn't answer my questions. Never mind.

I did, and then deleted it because I thought I had answered in the one paragraph and didn't want to go off on a long and convoluted post that wasn't even on topic. I proof same way everyone does. Ask for the behaviour in new places and new ways and reward when they do it. Same with distractions. I differentiate between good and great with criteria, I guess. Or maybe reward rate or jackpots depending on the situation. I don't set my dogs up to fail so I can show them what to do. I just show them what to do. Sometimes they make mistakes and I take that to mean we need to do some practice. I will keep training this way as long as I am getting the results I want. As I said, with a world full of potential reinforcers our dogs don't really have to go without.

MRB, I chain behaviours by rewarding with a cue for an easy behaviour.

[Vickie]

Sorry I read your initial comments to mean something entirely different Corvus. Easy to do when we are making broad statements rather than talking specifics. Yes, it seems you do train like most people.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Vickie

[JoeK]

There is no magic potion to stop the dog from barking at drunks at 3am, is normal for the dog to do this because drunk people a suspicios for the dog when they act stupid and the dog senses it so he barks, not even Cesar can fix this barking on drunks. You need firstly teach the dog shutup or shoosh, but you must be with the dog to catch him and then teach the shoosh and then we do a different behavior from the bark and reward the shoosh. If the dog barks and makes a pest at night, he needs to taken off the fence or taken inside to train him what behavior you want when he does bark.

Joe

[Lablover]

I had great reports from a friend who had BB for her pet dog.

Leaving no stone unturned in learning, I had them out to watch my training.

The guy observed, a few drills and hidden retrievers, stopping to the whistle, casting. He suggested he return when an American trainer flew in next day.

Did not charge me and never heard from him again.