Bark Busters And Cesar Milan

[huski]

My training treats are all like the vending machine. It doesn't bother me. My dogs rarely have to go without rewards. I have never found this to have much of an effect on their reliability. If they don't get a reward they figure something must be broken and just kinda shrug it off as bizarre. They'll keep doing that for half an hour. Erik probably longer, but I've never tested it. He can find so many things rewarding I feel sure I could find something. Lots of fun tricks he likes doing.

Corvus do you mean you treat for every command or do you mean you always reward at some point during a training session?

[Kelpie-i]

Why do you think it worked, murve?

Why do you think it wouldn't work...or why would you question it??

Just because you don't agree/like Cesar and his techniques, doesn't mean some of them won't help stop unwanted behaviours.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Kelpie-i

[murve]

Why do you think it worked, murve?

I like the way Ceacer thinks, I have seen most of his episodes, some of his techniques we have used in the past on our boys who liked to push the bpundry of dominence, we have helped people who have asked us for help.with dominate dogs, once we got them over that stage, they started to attend Obedience & have done well, Oh must say has anyone watched "It's Me or The Dog" with Victoria Stillwell ??????? she is also quite good in her methods, I have found what may work for one dog may not work for another.

After raising/training Rotties for over 15years we now have down graded our size of breeds, I may have lost some of the strengh in handling a dominating breed but the mental thinking is still there :D

[murve]

Why do you think it worked, murve?

Probably because she treated it like a dog and didn't become a human vending machine?????

I like your way of thinking Skye, :D well when you have lived with about 6 adult Rotties you have to show them who is "Alpha",all dogs over the weight of about 60kgs each. Me being a puenny 45kgs :D

[corvus]

Why do you think it worked, murve?

Why do you think it wouldn't work...or why would you question it??

Just because you don't agree/like Cesar and his techniques, doesn't mean some of them won't help stop unwanted behaviours.

Excuse me. Did I say I thought it wouldn't work? I've spent half of this thread saying I think these methods DO often work. I just don't think they work for the reasons claimed. I was genuinely interested to know whether murve thought this was a case where it had worked for the reasons claimed or whether it worked for some other reason. It wasn't a loaded question.

[corvus]

Not only are there dominant dogs, but there are dominant breeds? You learn something every day.

[Nekhbet]

Not only are there dominant dogs, but there are dominant breeds? You learn something every day

There are breeds more disposed to exhibiting those types of behaviours. A lot of bull and protection breeds in partcular and it has to be factored in when purchasing a dog that it IS part of breed traits to behave in some ways.

Its one of the points of creating breeds

[Skye GSD]

And the more tricks you can have in your bag, the better trainer you become. There is never one standard rule for all and if you close your mind to all other aspects of training, you are not only limiting yourself, you are limiting your best friend.

[corvus]

Probably because she treated it like a dog and didn't become a human vending machine?????

I love how rewarding liberally equates to... well, I'm not sure what you're claiming, there. A dog that is not treated like a dog, maybe? Although that doesn't make sense because all animals respond to rewards, including dogs. A dog that doesn't respond favourably to confrontational training methods?

[Skye GSD]

Probably because she treated it like a dog and didn't become a human vending machine?????

I love how rewarding liberally equates to... well, I'm not sure what you're claiming, there. A dog that is not treated like a dog, maybe? Although that doesn't make sense because all animals respond to rewards, including dogs. A dog that doesn't respond favourably to confrontational training methods?

I am not claiming anything - only that practical experience with all types of behaviour (irrespective of breed) will always win out over theory.

[Jeff Jones]

Probably because she treated it like a dog and didn't become a human vending machine?????

I love how rewarding liberally equates to... well, I'm not sure what you're claiming, there. A dog that is not treated like a dog, maybe? Although that doesn't make sense because all animals respond to rewards, including dogs. A dog that doesn't respond favourably to confrontational training methods?

I am not claiming anything - only that practical experience with all types of behaviour (irrespective of breed) will always win out over theory.

No it won't, just ask any academic.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Jeff Jones

[Skye GSD]

You're not wrong!!!!!

[Aidan3]

I am not claiming anything - only that practical experience with all types of behaviour (irrespective of breed) will always win out over theory.

Well I have both, and your comment has me stumped. The application of the theory might be wrong, and people with experience might do this better, but the theory doesn't "lose" in either case.

[JulesP]

I don't think it would be fair to say that BB were good or bad seeing as they are a franchise. I am sure some are good and some are bad

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Maybe the thing about theory and practice is more like

Given some results (from practice) - one makes a theory about why they come about - and then one designs a practical way of testing the theory.

Eg you map movement of bright objects in the sky, you come up with a theory about why they move the way they do, then you test the theory by trying to predict where the objects will move to.

Not every theory can be tested by experiment though. Eg - What happens when you go faster than the speed of light. But some theories - that cannot be tested with what technology and knowledge we have now, might be open to testing later, eg climate science - or how our brains work (why we think what we think and what is a "mind" anyway?

So back to dog training.

The trouble with being a vending machine for your dog is that you treat every desired outcome, if you can't do that for some reason eg you're in an obedience comp and rules forbid or need to chain a long string of behaviours together for a movie or tv commercial or just because they need to be done at a distance and you can't treat over there...

My dog gets a bit confused about whether or not she's supposed to be doing whatever it is, or if I tell her she's done something right, she comes looking for the treat (or me to come and give it to her). Which is mostly a limitation of my training technique but also an example of the need for delay of reward/gratification for the dog, and that random jackpots may work better. All I know is that sheep herding cannot be trained with the aid of a human vending machine.

However, we are getting somewhere with the agility, ie I don't use food for reward there nearly as much as tug, and now she's getting the idea that she has to do more than one obstacle or at least keep going until I say we're done before she gets the treat.

[Aidan3]

All I know is that sheep herding cannot be trained with the aid of a human vending machine.

But when they are working sheep, their reward is always there!

[poodlefan]

Just because you don't agree/like Cesar and his techniques, doesn't mean some of them won't help stop unwanted behaviours.

The difficulty with Cesar's techniques as I see them is that people focus on WHAT he does and tend to ignore the following:

* He is very experienced dog trainer, particularly with challenging dogs.

* He sees the dogs he deals with in the flesh and evaluates their behaviour.

* What he does is based on his knowledge, experience and observation.

* He's prepared to take a bite to get the job done.

Now lets remove all that knowledge, all that experience and all that observation and have Jo Public emulate his methods.

If Fido delivers a decent bite to a family member using Cesar's methods, the dog will probably be on a one way trip to the vet.

Most of Cesar's critics never doubt the effectiveness of what he does. Its when others try the same methods that they see problems arising. I agree with them.

He stresses the importance of exercise and training. Frankly if more of the folk tempted to use his methods followed THAT advice, they'd probably never need to up the ante at all.

Edited March 8, 2011 by poodlefan

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

But when they are working sheep, their reward is always there!

Yes, but when I say "good dog" she's always here... and yet if I offer her a treat she won't take it when sheep are there. I really need to take her back up the hill and try again.

Does anyone know how you find out if your dog eats ducks without losing a duck? I know she likes chasing them. Just not sure what happens if she actually catches up.

[Aidan3]

But when they are working sheep, their reward is always there!

Yes, but when I say "good dog" she's always here... and yet if I offer her a treat she won't take it when sheep are there. I really need to take her back up the hill and try again.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but when a dog is working sheep, food is probably not a reinforcer - the opportunity to work sheep is. I would use that, if it's appropriate.

Does anyone know how you find out if your dog eats ducks without losing a duck? I know she likes chasing them. Just not sure what happens if she actually catches up.

I wouldn't let her chase them. Long line if her recall isn't strong enough. Sounds to me like a trip to a herding instructor might be worthwhile, might solve both these problems.

[Kelpie-i]

Just because you don't agree/like Cesar and his techniques, doesn't mean some of them won't help stop unwanted behaviours.

The difficulty with Cesar's techniques as I see them is that people focus on WHAT he does and tend to ignore the following:

* He is very experienced dog trainer, particularly with challenging dogs.

* He sees the dogs he deals with in the flesh and evaluates their behaviour.

* What he does is based on his knowledge, experience and observation.

* He's prepared to take a bite to get the job done.

Now lets remove all that knowledge, all that experience and all that observation and have Jo Public emulate his methods.

If Fido delivers a decent bite to a family member using Cesar's methods, the dog will probably be on a one way trip to the vet.

Most of Cesar's critics never doubt the effectiveness of what he does. Its when others try the same methods that they see problems arising. I agree with them.

He stresses the importance of exercise and training. Frankly if more of the folk tempted to use his methods followed THAT advice, they'd probably never need to up the ante at all.

Certainly not disagreeing with you PF..infact this has always been the common agreeance with Cesar and his methods... but the fact that the title of this thread includes his name, TO ME lends the notion that along with BB, the OP's intentions were to seek comments of discreditation for both parties from others on this forum. That may not have been the intention but that's what came across and because I am completely over the Cesar Bashing thing.