Low Drive Dogs

[Staranais]

Do you think a truly low drive dog would be able to get obedience titles and perhaps some other dogsport titles?

Would they need an exceptional or at least experienced trainer to achieve this?

Would they be capable of winning a competition?

Do you think any dog is capable of getting obedience titles, provided the trainer is dedicated enough?

Are you thinking of training one of your dogs for competition, Aussielover? If so, good luck!

I think that most dogs could get lower level Australian obedience titles, if the handler was persistent enough. Higher level titles, and in many other disciplines & working pursuits, you'd need a dog with a bit more pizazz & a handler that could motivate the dog.

I've also seen dogs do well in high level obedience that didn't appear to be very drivy to me, they were merely focused & calm. That level of drive wouldn't be adequate for what I do (SAR), or for schutzhund or for winning agility competitions, yet these dogs did quite well in obedience. So perhaps you need to think about the difference between merely motivating a dog to do something, and it being in drive (a term which means different things to different trainers, of course - if the dog isn't fired up & adrenalised, I don't call it drive, and nor do most working dog trainers I know).

[Kristov]

I have never seen a novice high drive combination fail under club instruction, and the failures are generally the low drive dogs that don't perform well enough or they give up from having an unsuitable dog. I don't see why obedience and agility is any different unless the clubs conducting those sports don't provide training tuition to the novice handlers as they do in Schutzhund.

In agility I have seen experienced handlers who have done very well with a different breed decide that to be more competitive they needed a Border Collie, but haven't yet figured out how to handle their Border Collie as well as they handled their other breed, as well as novice handlers with driven dogs who struggle with control.

Schutzhund basically revolves around 3 breeds with similar work ethics which is more easily contained in a club training environment where I guess agility with so many variants, it's almost a free for all in a training perspective to provide personal tuition suitable for such a large range of breeds and character differences.

[Kavik]

In agility there is quite a range of breeds that do well in different height categories. Generally the most competitive height category includes the Border Collies, Kelpies etc but there are some very fast Papillons, Shelties, Poodles, Viszlas, Corgis, Staffies along with others that are equally as competitive. Different heights provide different challenges to both dogs and handlers on a course as well. And of course different people prefer and work better with different breeds. There are also different handling systems and different ways to teach the various obstacles. Whereas I would think there is less variation in Schutzhund?

Edited March 4, 2011 by Kavik

[Staranais]

I'd also imagine that there would be more variation in training & success in schutzhund in countries where any breed is allowed to compete? I'd think that training something like a labrador or terrier for Sch would be a rather different kettle of fish to training your typical working line herding breed, but I've seen footage of these breeds competing. It's certainly been a very different experience teaching & handling my old stafford and my new malinois, although they're both reasonably high drive dogs.

[Kavik]

And I think even with Schutzhund, for a first time competitor who hasn't owned a high drive working breed before, it would be difficult for them to start with a very high drive Malinois.

I have a high drive Kelpie (who is doing well at agility) but I am still not sure whether I am up to dealing with a high drive Malinois (though they are on my list). Different temperament, different size, different kettle of fish.

[Staranais]

And I think even with Schutzhund, for a first time competitor who hasn't owned a high drive working breed before, it would be difficult for them to start with a very high drive Malinois.

I have a high drive Kelpie (who is doing well at agility) but I am still not sure whether I am up to dealing with a high drive Malinois (though they are on my list). Different temperament, different size, different kettle of fish.

Yes, I totally agree. I know with my mally she's so much more reactive and sensitive than my stafford, and her thresholds to go into drive are so much lower, she's quite a lot more difficult to handle in some ways than my old boy was (although easier in some ways too).

Although I think it would be easier for a first time competitor to raise & train a high drive dog if they had an experienced training mentor to hold their hand and supervise them and give them advice. Which is sort of the point Kristov is making about training clubs, I think.

[Kristov]

I'd also imagine that there would be more variation in training & success in schutzhund in countries where any breed is allowed to compete? I'd think that training something like a labrador or terrier for Sch would be a rather different kettle of fish to training your typical working line herding breed, but I've seen footage of these breeds competing. It's certainly been a very different experience teaching & handling my old stafford and my new malinois, although they're both reasonably high drive dogs.

There are specific breeds allowed under the FCI although some overseas clubs will train any breed but ultimately GSD's, Malinios, Rottweiller and the odd Doberman are the most common and the breeds that achieve the highest ratings. I don't think Labradors are sanctioned but there are some more rare breeds that are although I don't believe are very successful as a general rule.

[Kristov]

And I think even with Schutzhund, for a first time competitor who hasn't owned a high drive working breed before, it would be difficult for them to start with a very high drive Malinois.

I have a high drive Kelpie (who is doing well at agility) but I am still not sure whether I am up to dealing with a high drive Malinois (though they are on my list). Different temperament, different size, different kettle of fish.

Yes, I totally agree. I know with my mally she's so much more reactive and sensitive than my stafford, and her thresholds to go into drive are so much lower, she's quite a lot more difficult to handle in some ways than my old boy was (although easier in some ways too).

Although I think it would be easier for a first time competitor to raise & train a high drive dog if they had an experienced training mentor to hold their hand and supervise them and give them advice. Which is sort of the point Kristov is making about training clubs, I think.

GSD's and Rottweilers are similar in character and less tempermental than the Malinois and easier to get a handle on for the novice trainer I think, but many novice trainers who begin with a Malinios under guidence of a mentor do quite well. Often it's the experienced GSD handlers who struggle with the Malinios differences. GSD's and Rotties are a bit more forgiving to training errors where incorrect training is more easily ammended than it is with the Malinois. For the novice trainer, it's harder to mess up the GSD and Rotty from training error and provides a bit more buffer between getting it right and wrong.

[The Spotted Devil]

Call me crazy, but I bought a Dalmatian specifically for dog obedience and agility. My previous dog was an incredibly athletic and intelligent ACD and I wanted a quite different dog so as not to compare them. A challenge!

And, whilst to compete at the highest levels of retrieving I could have bought a (more suited) working line Lab, I chose to get a working line ESS.

I love the personality traits of these dogs, not to mention their looks. They are dogs that I enjoy living with, first and foremost. How dull the world would be if we all liked the same things!

And no, I don't complain when we are beaten by Border Collies in obedience and agility. But nor do their owners complain when we beat them

[SmoothieGirl]

Call me crazy, but I bought a Dalmatian specifically for dog obedience and agility. My previous dog was an incredibly athletic and intelligent ACD and I wanted a quite different dog so as not to compare them. A challenge!

And, whilst to compete at the highest levels of retrieving I could have bought a (more suited) working line Lab, I chose to get a working line ESS.

I love the personality traits of these dogs, not to mention their looks. They are dogs that I enjoy living with, first and foremost. How dull the world would be if we all liked the same things!

And no, I don't complain when we are beaten by Border Collies in obedience and agility. But nor do their owners complain when we beat them

You crazy person you

I now have two smooth Collies and my bitch has been successful in low level obed (CCD), will be successful in herding (has two non competitive titles already) and is about to start consistent agility training which we may or may not have success with. Her drive for obed is low, for agility I'd say med and herding med-high.

Here's the thing, if you want a companion dog that is easy to live with and will also give you a reasonable amount of joy and success in competition, a high drive dog may not be your thing. Watching the dogs in the obed trials that I attended last year, very few of the high level dogs exhibited high drive, but many many of them did great work and appeared to be enjoying the connection they had with their handlers.

I chose Collies because they are on the quieter end of the working dog scale, very intelligent and less work that my previous dog - a Dobe. I'm super happy with my choice and I'm sure there are many people out there with very very successful dogs that don't fit the 'high drive, high success' mold.

I don't complain when the BC's win either, but they aren't the dog for me, so I don't have a right to really do I.

[JulesP]

I have border collies because I like border collies I could not give a rats about competing or winning. I've wanted a border collie since I was a little girl watching the sheep dog trials in the UK.

I definitely think any person should get the dog that they want to live with. If you do that then I don't think you can go far wrong.

Does it matter if you don't get titles or win? Nope. I bet you still had a good day out with your dog and chatting to other dog nutcases. The time in the ring is so, so short compared to the time just enjoying your pooch.

Looks down at the 3 border collies snoozing on the veranda with me and thinks that is shit loads better then any comp win.