Kavik Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Do you think a truly low drive dog would be able to get obedience titles and perhaps some other dogsport titles?Would they need an exceptional or at least experienced trainer to achieve this? Would they be capable of winning a competition? Do you think any dog is capable of getting obedience titles, provided the trainer is dedicated enough? I don't see the point of training an unsuitable animal as it's hard enough to train a suitable one to achieve good results. I can't see exceptional trainer's that have the experience to extract the dog's potential wasting their time training something to a mediocre level when they could train a suitable animal with a greater potential to win and use their time more wisely. Often novice trainers think they will learn something training an unsuitable dog which is true, they learn rather quickly to avoid training unsuitable dogs in the future Highly driven dogs are the easiest to train for the highest level of achievements. Agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 work ethic to me - is the dog that keeps fetching the ball (or doing something else it loves with you) until it physically can't carry on. Ie it's up to you to limit how long you work because the dog will work for as long as it can. That thing where the dog quits on you, can be trained out - SG has a method for it but I'm a bit fuzzy on the details. I think it involves keeping the dog on lead and not giving it any other choice but to work with you until you say it can quit. Ie it can do nothing, but it can't leave; or it can work with you until you release it. It requires the handler to be much more patient and persistant than the dog. Ie out last and out wit. That was a really interesting part of the seminar. She suggested this is how I could get Kaos to tug in different environments and when I have other rewards (that he prefers to the tug). I'm not sure I am that patient or persistent though Would love to hear more about how she does this or suggest people do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I don't see the point of training an unsuitable animal as it's hard enough to train a suitable one to achieve good results. I can't see exceptional trainer's that have the experience to extract the dog's potential wasting their time training something to a mediocre level when they could train a suitable animal with a greater potential to win and use their time more wisely. Often novice trainers think they will learn something training an unsuitable dog which is true, they learn rather quickly to avoid training unsuitable dogs in the future Highly driven dogs are the easiest to train for the highest level of achievements. Agree with this So basically, those of us who don't have a high drive dog should just give up without even trying to get the best out of our dogs? Why even bother in the first place? Gee, I've wasted a lot of my time, then. Competing is not just about winning (I know, I can't believe I just said that either). I am more than happy not to win when I compete as long as my dog goes out and does the best work she is capable of doing. That is still a win for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I don't see the point of training an unsuitable animal as it's hard enough to train a suitable one to achieve good results. I can't see exceptional trainer's that have the experience to extract the dog's potential wasting their time training something to a mediocre level when they could train a suitable animal with a greater potential to win and use their time more wisely. Often novice trainers think they will learn something training an unsuitable dog which is true, they learn rather quickly to avoid training unsuitable dogs in the future Highly driven dogs are the easiest to train for the highest level of achievements. Lots of people have already said that supposedly low drive dogs do compete and even win. That hardly makes them unsuitable. I think everyone who had a choice would prefer to train a high drive dog for competition, but why should that exclude dogs of moderate or low drive? Given how much my lower drive dog loves to train, I don't think it's a waste of time trying to get the most out of him. It's fun for both of us. Training my "suitable" dog is fun as well. I think for those of who just want to have fun with our dogs, there is no reason not to train a dog that is never going to be a super strong competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Hey huski! If I had a dollar for every person who's said "Why would you bother training a Dalmatian?" I'd not be relying on my post grad scholarship Best thing I ever did - one of the more challenging, mind you, but one of the most satisfying. I'll definitely have another "unconventional" dog. They certainly keep you on your toes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 And further to my post above, sometimes you just have to work with what you've given. I can't have another dog right now so why not put my time and effort into training the one I have so I can develop my skills and learn from her? And yes, I've learnt plenty more than just "get a high drive dog next time". Training and competing with my current dog - who plenty of people told me not to bother with - has made me a better dog trainer in SO many ways and my next dog (that will hopefully be a higher drive dog) will undoubtedly benefit from the knowledge and skills I have gained from training the dog I have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Hey huski! If I had a dollar for every person who's said "Why would you bother training a Dalmatian?" I'd not be relying on my post grad scholarship Best thing I ever did - one of the more challenging, mind you, but one of the most satisfying. I'll definitely have another "unconventional" dog. They certainly keep you on your toes Same here TSD I STILL get asked that question now. I have had people come up to me at trials and congratulate me just for showing up once they've seen the dog I have at the end of the leash. Besides which, high drive dogs are only good to train if you are using the right methods. There are plenty of top triallers who would struggle training a high drive dog because they still use old school methods that wouldn't work on a very driven dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I don't see the point of training an unsuitable animal as it's hard enough to train a suitable one to achieve good results. I can't see exceptional trainer's that have the experience to extract the dog's potential wasting their time training something to a mediocre level when they could train a suitable animal with a greater potential to win and use their time more wisely. Often novice trainers think they will learn something training an unsuitable dog which is true, they learn rather quickly to avoid training unsuitable dogs in the future Highly driven dogs are the easiest to train for the highest level of achievements. Agree with this So basically, those of us who don't have a high drive dog should just give up without even trying to get the best out of our dogs? Why even bother in the first place? Gee, I've wasted a lot of my time, then. Competing is not just about winning (I know, I can't believe I just said that either). I am more than happy not to win when I compete as long as my dog goes out and does the best work she is capable of doing. That is still a win for me. That is not what I said. UNSUITABLE animal is the main point I got here. If neither one is enjoying it and it is frustrating, and the level of performance is not going to get to a point where you can compete, and the dog would rather lay around the house and is not a problem, then I don't see the point in doing it. If you are enjoying it and doing well, then the dog is suitable The dog needs to have enough drive to do the task. I think of my dog who also has allergies and is uncomfortable - there is the odd moment when he works well (and he can certainly do all the exercises) but most of the time he is not interested/not comfortable and gives a poor performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I get what you are saying Kavik but the way I read Kristov's post came across that no one should waste their time on anything but a "highly driven dog". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 The problem with people giving up on a dog with low drive is that it is often not the dog that is the problem. The same basic principles are applied for training regardless of drive. A person unable to train a low drive dog is also unlikely to succeed with a higher drive dog. Different problems maybe, but problems nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 The problem with people giving up on a dog with low drive is that it is often not the dog that is the problem. The same basic principles are applied for training regardless of drive. A person unable to train a low drive dog is also unlikely to succeed with a higher drive dog. Different problems maybe, but problems nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristov Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I don't see the point of training an unsuitable animal as it's hard enough to train a suitable one to achieve good results. I can't see exceptional trainer's that have the experience to extract the dog's potential wasting their time training something to a mediocre level when they could train a suitable animal with a greater potential to win and use their time more wisely. Often novice trainers think they will learn something training an unsuitable dog which is true, they learn rather quickly to avoid training unsuitable dogs in the future Highly driven dogs are the easiest to train for the highest level of achievements. Agree with this So basically, those of us who don't have a high drive dog should just give up without even trying to get the best out of our dogs? Why even bother in the first place? Gee, I've wasted a lot of my time, then. Competing is not just about winning (I know, I can't believe I just said that either). I am more than happy not to win when I compete as long as my dog goes out and does the best work she is capable of doing. That is still a win for me. I think generally, many people begin training with the dog they have and probably didn't get their dog originally for competition potential. There is a massive difference between training a dog bred for performance than just training any dog and is much more fun to train a dog that gets the idea straight up than one that presents a struggle all the way. An unresponsive dog to novice trainers is often the reason they give up training with the belief that they are no good at it or training is too difficult with the feeling they will never make it, where in fact with a good dog, the same people will enjoy their training and can be quite good at it from the inspiration that training a more responsive dog provides. Personally, I think a novice trainer would have the most enjoyment and learn more easily with the best dog they can aquire and provides them with more inspiration to work at it when results come a lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 The problem with people giving up on a dog with low drive is that it is often not the dog that is the problem. The same basic principles are applied for training regardless of drive. A person unable to train a low drive dog is also unlikely to succeed with a higher drive dog. Different problems maybe, but problems nonetheless. I would agree that often that's the case, but not always. I don't think that anyone would guess that my two dogs live in the same household going by their training... my low drive boy knows the basics but I struggled to train anything more complex with him (even quite simple tricks such as spin or roll) so he just gets short, easy sessions every few days. My medium drive girl has been a dream to train, she is 15 months old and ready for obedience trialling. I have had very few problems training her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I think generally, many people begin training with the dog they have and probably didn't get their dog originally for competition potential. There is a massive difference between training a dog bred for performance than just training any dog and is much more fun to train a dog that gets the idea straight up than one that presents a struggle all the way. An unresponsive dog to novice trainers is often the reason they give up training with the belief that they are no good at it or training is too difficult with the feeling they will never make it, where in fact with a good dog, the same people will enjoy their training and can be quite good at it from the inspiration that training a more responsive dog provides.Personally, I think a novice trainer would have the most enjoyment and learn more easily with the best dog they can aquire and provides them with more inspiration to work at it when results come a lot easier. Well I'm a novice trainer and I have heaps of fun training my low drive dog, I find it very enjoyable. I don't think having a high drive dog alone is enough to make training enjoyable for a handler - I know plenty of people who would be absolutely miserable training a truly high drive dog. I know novice and even experience handlers with high drive dogs who struggle with them and don't find training them fun. They struggle to get results with them. In some cases it can be like handing a leaner driver the keys to a porche before theyve learnt how to drive in the first place - it is a great car to drive if you know how to handle it. I think a lot of dogs get written off far too easily. At the end of the day it's easy to tell someone they "should" get a higher drive dog but what is the point if that's not what they have? If I told everyone who came through our club wanting to train and/or compete with their dog not to bother because their dog isn't high drive enough we'd have hardly any members. Out of curiousity - was the GSD in the vid you linked to yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) If I walk Diesel by himself and let him off lead, he will plod along, might occasionally trot but certainly will not often run. In order to get an animated trot out of him I have to pretty much make myself exhausted in the process. I don't see that as fun or productive and I don't see the point in persisting in spending so much time training a dog that obviously does not want to do it. It's not fair on him or me. I now normally walk him with Kaos if I want him to run as he will follow Kaos. My others are a dream to train in comparison, even Zoe who is 11 now and not as active as she was when younger lights up more about a training session than Diesel does. ETA: and because of the aggression issues I had with Zoe, I went through a period of trying various techniques with her and despite the inconsistencies (by all rights she should have the least interest considering some of the stuff I have tried!) she is still willing and loves to work. Edited March 4, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 It is thought provoking. The more I think about it the more unsure I am what exactly drive even is when we talk about it in discussions like this. There are a few personality studies that have been done on dogs that seem to result in a construct that describes high drive versus low drive, but I think there is always something else we talk about in the "package" that isn't explained by a single factor in a multivariate analysis. Do we lump traits into a general concept of "drive" when they aren't necessarily related? Reactivity, persistence, energy level, extraversion/confidence, trainability, opportunism, attention towards rewards, novelty seeking...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Kavik I totally know where you are coming from but IMO there is a big gap between Diesels level of drive and a high drive WL dog that Kristov is referring too. My dog was bought as a pet, she was definitely not bred for obedience competition in fact on paper she is the opposite of ideal. She is everything Kristov is saying to write off and not bother with. Yet we still manage to get by ok and I get so much joy out of training her it blows me away to hear others think I shouldn't bother with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 In order to get an animated trot out of him I have to pretty much make myself exhausted in the process.... I now normally walk him with Kaos if I want him to run as he will follow Kaos. so are you saying he will run with Kaos? So he sometimes has more drive than other times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristov Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 And further to my post above, sometimes you just have to work with what you've given. I can't have another dog right now so why not put my time and effort into training the one I have so I can develop my skills and learn from her? And yes, I've learnt plenty more than just "get a high drive dog next time". Training and competing with my current dog - who plenty of people told me not to bother with - has made me a better dog trainer in SO many ways and my next dog (that will hopefully be a higher drive dog) will undoubtedly benefit from the knowledge and skills I have gained from training the dog I have now. Not necessarily Huski, this is one example: You have a nice focused heel on your Beagle who is low drive perhaps and the work you have done was to gain focus. With a highly driven dog that has natural focus, the same principals learned from training your Beagle will have the high drive dog jumping up in your face like a mad thing, so the heel will need a different approach. Sure you will learn from training any dog, but it doesn't mean because you can train a low drive dog that when getting a high drive dog that the same training principals apply and quite often, you basically have to begin from scratch to learn the different temperament and response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) In order to get an animated trot out of him I have to pretty much make myself exhausted in the process.... I now normally walk him with Kaos if I want him to run as he will follow Kaos. so are you saying he will run with Kaos? So he sometimes has more drive than other times? He will run with Kaos (follow him around, chase him, play with him, run if left behind at the park) and will chase the postman's motorbike. Those are the times he is the most excited. He certainly won't run on his own steam if he is the only one at the park. ETA: and dinner time. He will give me good focus and work for his dinner. However I have tried only giving him his dinner as training treats and didn't have any success with that. Edited March 4, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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