Low Drive Dogs

[poodlefan]

The thread isn't about whether you can train a low drive dog though. Of course you can. It is whether you can train it to compete and win competitions.

The challenge with a low drive dog in many competitions is that the opportunity to motivate them is more remote. No immediate ability to reward, with most valuable motivators outside the ring can be a challenge.

I put a AD, JDX and CCD on a highly food motivated dog with very low social confidence. Confronted with the unfamiliar or pressured too much she'd shut down. It was challenging to get speed out of a dog that would not allow me to lead out and that only really drove to tunnels. A five tunnel course with one early on was my kind of course.

I used to joke about dressing my friends up in cabanossi or as kangaroos and having them run around the outside of the ring.

Yes, it can be done. Yes, it requires a lowering of expectations and the ability to build duration. Would I wish it on someone else? Not really, it can be frustrating and depressing at times. But most of us do what we can with the dogs we have and find reward in things other than qualifications and places.

To see a dog that I spent 9 months training before she'd go through a tunnel and over an A-Frame really tear up those obstacles was a blast.

Lily did get a JDX first.. after every faster dog DQ'd on a course at Wagga.

Edited March 2, 2011 by poodlefan

[Aidan3]

I suppose it depends on what you call "low drive". I would consider roughly 75% of dogs in obedience and ANKC agility rings to be "low drive" compared to many other working arenas.

[poodlefan]

I suppose it depends on what you call "low drive". I would consider roughly 75% of dogs in obedience and ANKC agility rings to be "low drive" compared to many other working arenas.

I think that these sports, and the disallowance of motivators for competition can make it challenging to harness drive effectively.

And, as Vickie says, there is also some very ordinary training at times.

[Vickie]

I suppose it depends on what you call "low drive". I would consider roughly 75% of dogs in obedience and ANKC agility rings to be "low drive" compared to many other working arenas.

I think that's changing Aiden, at least in agility. When was the last time you went to a trial?

I joined a club last night, first time I have trained at a club for about 4 years. I was absolutely astounded, in the 2 classes we participated in, I did not see one dog who did not have great speed & drive to do the courses. It was wonderful to see & vastly different to what I saw the last time I attended a club

[poodlefan]

I suppose it depends on what you call "low drive". I would consider roughly 75% of dogs in obedience and ANKC agility rings to be "low drive" compared to many other working arenas.

I think that's changing Aiden, at least in agility. When was the last time you went to a trial?

I joined a club last night, first time I have trained at a club for about 4 years. I was absolutely astounded, in the 2 classes we participated in, I did not see one dog who did not have great speed & drive to do the courses. It was wonderful to see & vastly different to what I saw the last time I attended a club

To some degree Vickie, that is also influenced by dog/breed selection. The types of dogs doing agility has also changed over time.

[Vickie]

I suppose it depends on what you call "low drive". I would consider roughly 75% of dogs in obedience and ANKC agility rings to be "low drive" compared to many other working arenas.

I think that's changing Aiden, at least in agility. When was the last time you went to a trial?

I joined a club last night, first time I have trained at a club for about 4 years. I was absolutely astounded, in the 2 classes we participated in, I did not see one dog who did not have great speed & drive to do the courses. It was wonderful to see & vastly different to what I saw the last time I attended a club

To some degree Vickie, that is also influenced by dog/breed selection. The types of dogs doing agility has also changed over time.

not relevant to what I saw last night PF, there was a really diverse group of breeds, a number of scruffy little dogs, terrier mixes,a couple of labs and yes a few typical agility breeds, running at almost maximum capacity

[poodlefan]

I suppose it depends on what you call "low drive". I would consider roughly 75% of dogs in obedience and ANKC agility rings to be "low drive" compared to many other working arenas.

I think that's changing Aiden, at least in agility. When was the last time you went to a trial?

I joined a club last night, first time I have trained at a club for about 4 years. I was absolutely astounded, in the 2 classes we participated in, I did not see one dog who did not have great speed & drive to do the courses. It was wonderful to see & vastly different to what I saw the last time I attended a club

To some degree Vickie, that is also influenced by dog/breed selection. The types of dogs doing agility has also changed over time.

not relevant to what I saw last night PF, there was a really diverse group of breeds, a number of scruffy little dogs, terrier mixes,a couple of labs and yes a few typical agility breeds, running at almost maximum capacity

Training has for the most part, helped with this too. I think we both gave views recently about the importance of building drive from the get go.

[huski]

I totally agree that it can depend hugely on methods used too. I don't see many high drive dogs competing in obedience but by the same token, my beagle who has moderate drive will go out and work better than and even beat GSDs, BCs, labs etc - working breeds and the dogs themselves are by no means lacking in drive or have less drive than Daisy, they've just been trained not to exhibit drive for whatever reason (usually because they've been trained with old school methods).

[bedazzledx2]

That sounds more like a training issue rather than a drive issue! I would be looking for a good obedience class that uses a reward based system. Premack definately helps with this.

I was thinking of doing obedience trails with my Shelley but now thinking about it i don't think she will be any good at it. Shelley is the type of dog that i would call high energy she can't stay in one place for too long. I read that you are only allowed to say heel once and the dog is meant to stay in that position the whole time. Shelley isn't like that yes she will heel but gets bored easyand then wants to run around.

[poodlefan]

That sounds more like a training issue rather than a drive issue! I would be looking for a good obedience class that uses a reward based system. Premack definately helps with this.

I was thinking of doing obedience trails with my Shelley but now thinking about it i don't think she will be any good at it. Shelley is the type of dog that i would call high energy she can't stay in one place for too long. I read that you are only allowed to say heel once and the dog is meant to stay in that position the whole time. Shelley isn't like that yes she will heel but gets bored easyand then wants to run around.

I agree. A decent club could sort these issues out.

Dogs that get distracted aren't necessarily "high drive" just not motivated enough to do what you're asking of them. Your job is to teach them that self control and obedience to your cues brings reward.

You own a breed that routinely wins at the highest level of competition. Don't write your dog off.

[JulesP]

That sounds more like a training issue rather than a drive issue! I would be looking for a good obedience class that uses a reward based system. Premack definately helps with this.

I was thinking of doing obedience trails with my Shelley but now thinking about it i don't think she will be any good at it. Shelley is the type of dog that i would call high energy she can't stay in one place for too long. I read that you are only allowed to say heel once and the dog is meant to stay in that position the whole time. Shelley isn't like that yes she will heel but gets bored easyand then wants to run around.

mumtoshelley you can only say heel once but you can say it after each drop, stand, sit. You are also changing direction a fair bit. The heel pattern also doesn't go for a mega long time. You get to say heel a fair bit.

[Aidan3]

there was a really diverse group of breeds, a number of scruffy little dogs, terrier mixes,a couple of labs and yes a few typical agility breeds, running at almost maximum capacity

So are they high-drive dogs, or have they had the best brought out in them?

It could be my tendency of lumping dogs into one of two categories, those who don't pause for long (high drive) and those who most people could live with quite comfortably (low drive). On reflection, this thread might be devoted to the lowest 15% or so? In which case I think it would be difficult to be competitive without a lot of patience because training sessions would be painfully short and infrequent.

[wuffles]

My Satchmo is very low drive. He's not highly food motivated, is not pack driven, is disinterested in toys. I do suspect that I could get more out of him if I could harness his prey drive properly but I think it would be a LOT of work!! I don't think it would be possible to get titles on him to be honest. Is he trainable? Yes. But I doubt anyone could motivate him to heel for 2 minutes...

As some others mentioned, he is a very easy dog to live with. Fine being by himself, doesn't need lots of play or attention or exercise. He is OH's kind of dog

[Aidan3]

That sounds more like a training issue rather than a drive issue! I would be looking for a good obedience class that uses a reward based system. Premack definately helps with this.

I was thinking of doing obedience trails with my Shelley but now thinking about it i don't think she will be any good at it. Shelley is the type of dog that i would call high energy she can't stay in one place for too long. I read that you are only allowed to say heel once and the dog is meant to stay in that position the whole time. Shelley isn't like that yes she will heel but gets bored easyand then wants to run around.

I agree. A decent club could sort these issues out.

Dogs that get distracted aren't necessarily "high drive" just not motivated enough to do what you're asking of them. Your job is to teach them that self control and obedience to your cues brings reward.

You own a breed that routinely wins at the highest level of competition. Don't write your dog off.

Apart from that I've seen some video of Shelley and she is like a ball of clay, just waiting to be turned into something!

[Vickie]

there was a really diverse group of breeds, a number of scruffy little dogs, terrier mixes,a couple of labs and yes a few typical agility breeds, running at almost maximum capacity

So are they high-drive dogs, or have they had the best brought out in them?

probably both, some were paddlng their feet & screaming to have a go, others were going about as fast as I think they could.

It could be my tendency of lumping dogs into one of two categories, those who don't pause for long (high drive) and those who most people could live with quite comfortably (low drive).

plenty of very high drive dogs have the ability to switch off & relax when they need to

[corvus]

plenty of very high drive dogs have the ability to switch off & relax when they need to

By "very high drive dogs", are we talking about dogs with a high capacity for arousal, that are also easily aroused and highly motivated towards most rewards? Do they tend to have a high baseline level of arousal?

[bedazzledx2]

A bit of both but these days the competitive people are selecting for high drive dogs often going to the working sheepdog lines for agility. I have done so myself for obedience and agility with an extremely high drive working kelpie. This puppy would be a nightmare in an average suburban home but for me he is perfect! Agility has moved a long way in a relatively short time and is not the 'obedience with bumps' that it once was!!!!

there was a really diverse group of breeds, a number of scruffy little dogs, terrier mixes,a couple of labs and yes a few typical agility breeds, running at almost maximum capacity

So are they high-drive dogs, or have they had the best brought out in them?

It could be my tendency of lumping dogs into one of two categories, those who don't pause for long (high drive) and those who most people could live with quite comfortably (low drive). On reflection, this thread might be devoted to the lowest 15% or so? In which case I think it would be difficult to be competitive without a lot of patience because training sessions would be painfully short and infrequent.

[Aidan3]

It could be my tendency of lumping dogs into one of two categories, those who don't pause for long (high drive) and those who most people could live with quite comfortably (low drive).

plenty of very high drive dogs have the ability to switch off & relax when they need to

I think it's imperative, and it's something that I insist upon. I have a long list of rules about sleeping during the day and night, not fussing in a crate or vehicle, not playing in the house etc but there is a big trade-off in terms of exercise, mental stimulation and consistency that I don't think most people could or would want to provide. If you tried to treat these dogs like other dogs they wouldn't spend too much time "paused" and most people couldn't live with them comfortably.

I don't think my classification method is very fair, obviously there is a large middle ground of dogs most people wouldn't call "low drive" Which makes my statement that 75% of dogs doing obedience and ANKC agility are "low drive" unfair. Maybe 25% high drive, 70% normal and 5% low drive?

[Aidan3]

plenty of very high drive dogs have the ability to switch off & relax when they need to

By "very high drive dogs", are we talking about dogs with a high capacity for arousal, that are also easily aroused and highly motivated towards most rewards? Do they tend to have a high baseline level of arousal?

If you think of it in terms of Hull's "Drive Reduction Theory" you would say they took more to satisfy; e.g a "normal" Lab might retrieve a ball from the river 20 times in a row, a "high drive" Lab might retrieve a ball from the river 80 times in a row. If you plotted a graph, high drive would be a couple of standard deviations off the mean for whatever activity you were measuring (e.g retrieves in a single session before resting).

[Aidan3]

double post gremlins

Edited March 3, 2011 by Aidan2