Low Drive Dogs

[JulesP]

I would never get a fast sprint to the crate from crate games with my dogs. Leaving me is not something they value at all. No treat or food would make them value the crate more then staying with me. I could train them all to go in the crate but they would be trotting into the crate.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

JulesP

Have you watched the crate games DVD?

What about if your dog was only allowed to play with you if he went in the crate first?

Something like you set the crate up, get one dog out, you stand next to the crate and ignore dog until he goes into the crate and then you call him out and play with him, his favourite thing - whatever that is. Then you start again...

Do you think the dog would get faster at going in the crate in anticipation of the game he'd get when you call him out?

One of my dog's fav things is chasey. I got a fantastic stand-wait-go by playing games with her, but I didn't run for the chase game unless she did a perfect stand (no paws moving). And she loves that game now and she's very good at it. I can fake her out and she will stay put. Has trouble when a dog goes charging at her to get a tennis ball that someone threw next to her. But that probably won't happen anywhere it matters.

[The Spotted Devil]

ons - put simply drive is about how motivated a dog is to seek out things it finds rewarding - food, herd, retrieve, tug, human contact, canine contact etc - all those things the huge variety of dog breeds are designed to do.

When I started training Ziggy for obedience he just didn't really care about any of those - it was around the dreaded 9 month age too, which didn't help and, had I known what I know now, I would have used different training techniques earlier on. So to increase motivation you can use particular training tools - deny the dog access to things it finds rewarding unless it performs a behaviour first. I ended up feeding all Zig's food to him in training (he eats a lot so there were a lot of jackpots!) and when we took the training to the park I'd use the highest value treats I could come up with, ask for a behaviour, reinforce the behaviour with food and then release him to sniff and pee on things. If he didn't give me anything I'd just pop him back in the car and go home. It started off with him giving only a few seconds of attention and we built it up from there. I used the 2 food game to build motivation, despite being told that it would make him sniff the ground for treats (it didn't). I don't just want obedience but enthusiasm and enjoyment. I don't want a Q in the ring if he is lacklustre and switched off. As I said, we are both learning and have a long way to go. He will even tug before an agility run which is great because he gets really hyped up and focussed but I will only use it on the first few runs, otherwise it becomes an aversive. Then I switch to food only. It took me MONTHS to get him tugging away from home and even longer to pick up a dumbbell. I make sure he is fit and then rested the day before the trial. If it's hot he has a cool coat. If it's cool he has a warm coat. He has up to 5 cups of dry food for dinner. The night before a trial he gets half that. After a run in agility or obedience he gets high value treats and then he gets to sniff and mark his territory. Now I think he does have a higher level of "drive" and he seems to really enjoy training and trialling. As I said - just my personal experience.

ETA: Em is hilarious. Food? Yep! Retrieve? Yep! Tug? Yep! Play? Yep! Cuddles? Oh yeh It brings a different challenge as has been said - she finds birds very motivating. Fine for retrieving but not so great when she is getting dive bombed while doing a sit stay

Edited March 2, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[Ons]

thanks very much TSD, that makes it more understanding. I can confirm that Onslow is low drive, I'll have to find something that excites him whilst Latte is high.

Aussielover I'm at work so I will have a look at that site when I get home - thank you for posting it

[The Spotted Devil]

You see some incredibly high drive dogs doing agility but it takes a very talented person to train/handle those dogs correctly so that they don't get frustrated.

They all come with their own challenges

Edited March 2, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Frosty got a lot easier to train when I put her on a diet...

Less food at dinner time and more for working has made her much more interested, but there are times where she'd rather play tug or chase than eat.

[huski]

My dog is pretty low drive compared to some and she does ok.

I think a truly low drive dog would be hard work to title in the higher levels of obedience but I think most dogs could get through lower levels like CCD.

I don't know if my dog would have the drive or stamina to get through a full UD round to the standard I'd want (or even at all) but if we get past open (which is what I'm aiming for) we'll definitely give it a shot.

[mumtoshelley]

I was thinking of doing obedience trails with my Shelley but now thinking about it i don't think she will be any good at it. Shelley is the type of dog that i would call high energy she can't stay in one place for too long. I read that you are only allowed to say heel once and the dog is meant to stay in that position the whole time. Shelley isn't like that yes she will heel but gets bored easyand then wants to run around.

[Zug Zug]

Don't let that stop you with Shelley - that's just a stage that you train your way through. Start with short, fun sessions and build up the time gradually (very gradually). Make sure she is having a ball and getting lots of rewards! Make it a game.

If she is high energy then teaching her to hold focus would have real benefits in real life, not just in your training.

I can say this with some experience. My girl Zamba was utterly, utterly, utterly bonkers when she was younger (she is now 12) and I never thought she could keep her feet on the ground long enough to heel. But now she heels well. Staying, however, will always be difficult for us. But again, we're still working on it.

But it is possible with training to turn that bonkers energy into a fantastic, intense focus. Honestly, it's easier with a dog like that than it is with a slower, low drive dog (which is what this thread is about).

When a high drive dog decides to work with you, they turn all that energy towards you and that means a very keen, enthusiastic training partner if you can get the motivation right.

[huski]

I find my high drive dog has difficulties with stationary behaviours and impulse control. Tell Kivi to sit and he's the happiest dog in the world. Tell Erik to sit and he will try to pretend he didn't hear the cue. It took heaps of work to get his sit-stays solid, and if he's having a bad day basically we are back to ridiculously high reward rates. He is extremely easy to train in general, but if he wants to drive forwards, it takes a lot of work to teach him not to. In contrast, Kivi is easy to teach duration behaviours. He's not bouncing all over the place all the time, so there are heaps of opportunities to reward and loads of leeway for timing.

I don't know, the high drive dogs I've been around have always thrown themselves into any command they've been given if they know it will earn them their drive reward. I don't know if that's just them or the way they've been trained though.

I was thinking of doing obedience trails with my Shelley but now thinking about it i don't think she will be any good at it. Shelley is the type of dog that i would call high energy she can't stay in one place for too long. I read that you are only allowed to say heel once and the dog is meant to stay in that position the whole time. Shelley isn't like that yes she will heel but gets bored easyand then wants to run around.

High energy dogs are the most fun to train IMO if you find the right method! Some of the dogs I see do best in the obedience ring are high energy dogs.

[corvus]

ETA: Em is hilarious. Food? Yep! Retrieve? Yep! Tug? Yep! Play? Yep! Cuddles? Oh yeh

Haha, that sounds pretty familiar. I used to laugh at what Erik can turn into a high energy training game. Pretty much anything. Including "sitting quietly in a gazebo trying to watch dogs in a conformation show". Sometimes you actually don't want to be playing a high energy training game. He turns into one of those pet parrots that knows all they have to do to get the attention they want is make enough noise. Sometimes it's incredibly difficult NOT to reward him.

[corvus]

I find my high drive dog has difficulties with stationary behaviours and impulse control. Tell Kivi to sit and he's the happiest dog in the world. Tell Erik to sit and he will try to pretend he didn't hear the cue. It took heaps of work to get his sit-stays solid, and if he's having a bad day basically we are back to ridiculously high reward rates. He is extremely easy to train in general, but if he wants to drive forwards, it takes a lot of work to teach him not to. In contrast, Kivi is easy to teach duration behaviours. He's not bouncing all over the place all the time, so there are heaps of opportunities to reward and loads of leeway for timing.

I don't know, the high drive dogs I've been around have always thrown themselves into any command they've been given if they know it will earn them their drive reward. I don't know if that's just them or the way they've been trained though.

IMO when a behaviour is still being learned, "drive rewards" are not that much help. They are helpful if it's a very easy behaviour or active behaviour. This afternoon I shaped Erik to chase a ball he started out thoroughly ignoring using a chase-and-tug toy he badly wanted to play with instead, and he was pretty wildly aroused for that. But there's no way I could shape a stationary behaviour that way. Well, I wouldn't bother trying because it's completely counter-productive. I shape stationary behaviours with food or tactile. "Drive rewards" can come in later to build reliability. E's sitting for tug and chase games now and we're working on getting him to hold it when we tease him with the toys he wants. It took a long time to get his sits that solid, though. Kivi's sits are more solid and more reliable with much less work. He's just not as easily tempted as Erik. That natural tendency is what I was referring to.

[huski]

Sure, heaps of people will train new behaviours outside of drive. But you were talking about Erik blowing off a known command (sit) because he doesn't like doing it, because he's "high drive" and doesn't like to wait or sit still and doesn't have any impulse control. I was just saying that I've never seen a well trained high drive dog blow off a known command because it doesn't like to be stationary. Every high drive dog I've seen trained properly in drive, will take any opportunity they can to earn the reward.

Edited March 2, 2011 by huski

[skip]

I have been learning agility for a few yeasr now with my first 2 dogs. Firstly in the country we had limited training but 2 years ago I moved to Wollongong and had the opportunity to train a bit more.

I think that there is a lot to be said for learning with a steadier less drivey dog. Learning a good handling system is another big plus!!

I have a 40cm/mini kelpie x chi who is pretty laid back energy wise. And a timid chi x foxy toy who is pretty much my shadow. My dogs are not very energetic which also makes them so easy to live with.

After I learnt a handling system at our club (basically GD ) my dogs improved massively. Once they knew where they were going next, that I wouldn't be in the way and they could understand ever signal I gave - speed and enthusiasm just improved. So once they got me out of the way they could just go for it.

AS the courses are getting more complicated I notice the handling training paying off as the dogs easily follow my signals ( if I get them right). Mine still struggle with the fact that too many dogs running around make them uncomfortable. It took me a long time to get the chi to be comfortable enough to line up and start without closing down due to dogs at the start line. She still has the odd moment and she is finding weaving in a actual run hard but when she is confident - she is starting to really fly. Thou the weaving is a killer as she will be in JDM classes and AD still

The kelpie is getting older but for now I will run them as long as they want to. Every run I learn something and I'm hoping steadier in my training thou I am not the most naturally talented.

So I think any dog can do it - some just do it at a different pace and to a different level maybe. But I think I am just as proud of my little dogs as I know they are doing their best.

Takes all types to make it interesting too

[corvus]

But you were talking about Erik blowing off a known command (sit) because he doesn't like doing it, because he's "high drive" and doesn't like to wait or sit still and doesn't have any impulse control.

Oh, was I? I thought I was talking about this:

Kivi's sits are more solid and more reliable with much less work. He's just not as easily tempted as Erik. That natural tendency is what I was referring to.

E wasn't well trained at the time. As noted, he's pretty good with his sits, now, and shows good impulse control. It's much harder for him to hold in the face of a wiggly toy than it is for Kivi, though, and thus took a lot more work to train. Lots of things are inherently more distracting to Erik than they are to Kivi. I like Erik's enthusiasm; it's very fun. But I also like Kivi's natural focus. It makes my job a lot easier.

[Sir Sniffalot]

l think our Molly has a low drive, she is a challange to train as nothing motivates her, l would love for her to achieve her CCD title but she lacks the desire to perform the tasks asked, and lacks the desire for rewards, l think this is due to her rough start in life she does not feel he need to interact with us, she knows l wont starve her, no interest in toys or other dogs she is a very low maintance easy going dog. She knows her stuff but a recall is her slowly walking upto me and sitting a foot away, to her she performed the task asked to me l want her to be moving faster and coming all the way to me.

Our boy is not high drive but middle of the range he understand getting the job done results in a treat or his fav toy, he is a joy to train, once he knows what's being asked he gets it right and gets the goodies. To me Molly has potential that hasn't been tapped into, hopefully as l learn more l can find a way to approach training her further.

[corvus]

As someone who found a way to motivate a wild hare to train, I honestly think sometimes it's just a matter of reward selection and how you present it. A hare doesn't need to look for food, so doesn't have the natural opportunism a dog does. They don't really play, they don't hunt, and are really only driven by the need to find safety. It took me a long time before I figured out how to get my hare to work reliably for food. If I can get a hare to work for food I think anyone can motivate their low drive dog. You just have to find the right reward and start conditioning. Not just behaviours you want to train, but the act of training itself. Start with really short sessions so the animal doesn't get the chance to get bored and build their desire to train from there. For my hare, it's still a lot of classical conditioning to get through his fears.

[JulesP]

The thread isn't about whether you can train a low drive dog though. Of course you can. It is whether you can train it to compete and win competitions.

[Vickie]

I don't really think I have ever seen too many truly low drive dogs training for competition.

I have seen heaps with who seem low drive, but I would say it is suppressed drive, either created by fears, distractions or poor training.

I have also seen some incredible progress made by people tapping into drive that they had always assumed didn't exist.

Many people will tell you their dog is low drive during class & then throw a tennis ball after class to that same dog who has turned into a crazed lunatic. If your dog won't play enthusiastically with you but loves playing energetically with other dogs, it is not low drive.

And yes Jules, I agree, the ability to training basic (or even complex) behaviours is not the same as training for competition

eta, I did see a maremma once trying to learn agility who appeared to have very low drive, but the owner was right up there with one of the worst trainers I've ever seen, so can't guarantee it was the dog

Edited March 2, 2011 by Vickie

[huski]

The thread isn't about whether you can train a low drive dog though. Of course you can. It is whether you can train it to compete and win competitions.

Agreed - I see a big difference between the two.