Low Drive Dogs

[JulesP]

I dunno Aidan2 maybe we need to define high drive etc.

I feel clear about 'working in drive' as I can see the switch thanks to having attended a K9 Pro clinic.

But feel fuzzy on defining low, medium, high drive. Even Brock who I call low drive might come in at high pack drive by your definition. The little dude did sit out with me whilst I was gardening in a thunder storm after all. That is showing pretty good dedication to your pack.

Edited March 3, 2011 by JulesP

[Cosmolo]

Its also important to consider drive threshold too- just because a dog may be harder to get into drive initially wouldn't always make them low drive.

I have a dog here who i consider to have a moderate level of drive but a higher threshold to drive than two of my others so i have had to work harder to bring that drive forward. Its also questinable as to whether or not that threshold to drive is innate in her or created by me through some poor training early on. Now that that has been rectified she is a super dog to work. She is VERY easy to live with- but so are all of my 5, despite their varying levels of drive.

What do others think about work ethic as well for trialling dogs? Do you think some dogs are naturally more precise or is this all learned and training related?

[ness]

My view is the dog either has enough drive to complete the task that you require or they don't. I agree I think there is a fuzzy line when you start applying high drive/moderate drive/low drive tags. Drive is certainly not the be all and end all of a performance dog.

If your wanting a performance dog its a package - you want decent temperament, solid nerves, good drive levels and as Cosmolo said it also comes down to work ethic.

The question is more does the dog have enough "drive" for the task required. You might have a dog with low to moderate drive levels but solid nerves and get further then a dog who has moderate to high drive but nerve issues.

ETA. Cosmolo wrote: Do you think some dogs are naturally more precise or is this all learned and training related?

I am not sure about this and whether it comes down to correct training from day 1 and only reinforcing a desired behavior when its done correctly. I know my young girl has been a lot easier to train for precision (straighter fronts/neater retrieves) then my older dog but I don't know if that is because I knew more what I was after the second time around and didn't have to retrain things. Having said that her work is naturally neat. The first time I threw a DB for her she raced out, picked it up, bought it back and sat in a perfect present as though she had been doing it her entire life. Whether its because she has only ever been reinforced for straight sits in front even at the learning stages or whether she is just more accurate its I guess a little open for debate.

Edited March 3, 2011 by ness

[The Spotted Devil]

I think that the vast majority of Ziggy's work ethic is trained. As I've said previously he seriously couldn't give a flying sh!t and once I got him working for food it was very ho hum and for a few seconds only. I've tried to find things to reward just so he could get in a pattern of reinforcement and he's now cottoned on to the fact that he controls whether he is rewarded or not. He really blew me away last night at obedience training - so keen and enthusiastic and slightly scary lol. I think the multiple but short agility/jumping runs in competition have really improved his confidence and resilience.

I take no credit for Em's work ethic. She would have worked for her first suck on the teat if she'd had an option!

ETA: Just to add that Ziggy has always been incredibly self-confident and has never been bothered by novel environments or people. This "whatevah!!!!" attitude has made him both very difficult and very easy to train if that makes sense.

Edited March 3, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[JulesP]

Work ethic is super important but is work ethic actually drive??

[The Spotted Devil]

Work ethic is super important but is work ethic actually drive??

I think sometimes they go hand in hand. Perhaps work ethic is more about how we harness the drive???

[Cosmolo]

I see work ethic as being a bit different, but then as i start to think about it, maybe its not I tend to think drive can interfere with work ethic..

Work ethic- To me this is the dogs desire to be accurate, precise, to give 110%

But would it then be fair to say that the above is determined by the dogs drive.. Because a dog with higher drive in theory should produce the above.

How do i then explain a dog who has a similar level of drive to another, is super fun and keen to work, but is not as precise and doesn't seem to care if he is a little inaccurate.. I wonder if his lower threshold to drive means that the witholding of the reward when he is less accurate has less of an impact because he is already self rewarding (ie, he is already having so much fun within himself) Lower work ethic? Or just missing a training step through not removing the self reward, ie opportunity to train.

[JulesP]

Being accurate and precise I don't see as work ethic. I see them as being up to the trainer to get right. Work ethic to me is the desire to keep doing the job for however long they are asked to do it. To continue to work through distractions.

[Cosmolo]

Hmm.. I don't see it so much as the actual act of precision.. But more the desire to be precise. Its hard to explain- i know it when i see it.

I haven't thought about work ethic being about duration. Do you think its possible for a dog to have a great work ethic- for short periods of time?

[JulesP]

Not sure a dog would naturally have a desire to be precise unless that was trained into them. ie if you don't sit straight you can't have your reward.

Nerves factor into precision a lot I reckon.

For me work ethic is about duration or working in crappy conditions. It is about the dog always saying 'yes what can I do for you'.

[Aidan3]

I dunno Aidan2 maybe we need to define high drive etc.

I like where this conversation has gone, I hope it's OK with aussielover, but you're quite right - it does require a definition. This is the problem that many trainers have with drive, and some academics also have (e.g Corvus).

The way I see most dog trainers and breeders use the term I believe we are discussing something innate and to some extent, reproduceable in off-spring. There seems to be some consensus on what we are calling prey-drive, pack-drive, defence-drive etc so I think it's useful. It also fits reasonably well with Hull's Drive Reduction Theory, although what we use in the dog world seems to be a derivative of that and has it's own nuances that are independent, poorly defined and pretty much untested.

This thread has demonstrated that there is probably not a great deal of consensus on where we might apply the labels "high drive" or "low drive". What are we looking for and how do we test it? How do we compare a Springer Spaniel to a Malinois on prey drive? We really can't, they are completely different expressions (traits) of something we call the same thing in both cases, because we assume they have similar origins in chasing prey. However, as far as testing goes, I think working demands, working tests, and sporting trials do a pretty good job of selecting dogs with the right amount of drive for a particular set of tasks.

[Lablover]

Do you think any dog is capable of getting obedience titles, provided the trainer is dedicated enough?

As long as the dog was healthy...yes.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog, who freqently blows me off at club training - low drive? boring trainer? - blew me off at agility training last night to go possum hunting.

But I got a second chance, I called her back - not very hopeful of success. But she came back at full speed and we bolted around the course, even did the weaves right, and screamed up the scramble and completely overshot the contact on the down hill side (sigh).

Ie an extremely high drive (fast and excited) round after blowing me off and then coming back.

I think it's got a lot to do with training. If the dog ever gets excited about anything, you can get it excited about training or working. The trick is to notice and use what it finds exciting.

I think I'm going to buy some possum tails.

[Kavik]

Although my low drive allergy dog is extremely frustrating for training, he doesn't really get that excited about much, he is very easy to live with and very tolerant of other dogs and kids etc so he is great to take out to family gatherings/BBQs/social dog days out where my high drive competition dog who is much more fun and satisfying to train is more work in those environments. If only he didn't have allergies he would be a really lovely relaxing pet dog

[SmoothieGirl]

Interesting that work ethic has popped up as its what I thought about on the first page of the post.

I would say that Bronte is on the lower end of drive when it comes to obedience, but med-high (for a Collie) when it comes to herding. But either way, and for all disciplines I personally consider that she has a strong work ethic. She will try her little heart out over and over, for very extended periods of time when required. Most Collies will just quit when it gets too hard or they have had enough. She may be displaying low drive at the time, but she will just keep at it if I ask her to, with little encouragement.

Hmm, need to ponder that for a while.

[Beth.]

I did think Lottie had a fair bit of drive, but after seeing some dogs with high drive, Lottie could be seen as having low drive!! She is, however, very motivated by food and does love tugging - I would say she's more food motivated, but I think she lacks in work ethic - which is probably due to how i've trained her (i'm very new to this, so have done lots of things wrong i'm sure - just hope I haven't stuffed her up too much!!). I'm trying to really build up her drive and bring this out, as I do see potential there, just a shame I can't get to it (my fault, not hers, haha), but hopefully we'll get there one day!!!!

[huski]

Lottie is awesome Beth! She has more than enough potential to compete and so do you

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

work ethic to me - is the dog that keeps fetching the ball (or doing something else it loves with you) until it physically can't carry on. Ie it's up to you to limit how long you work because the dog will work for as long as it can.

That thing where the dog quits on you, can be trained out - SG has a method for it but I'm a bit fuzzy on the details. I think it involves keeping the dog on lead and not giving it any other choice but to work with you until you say it can quit. Ie it can do nothing, but it can't leave; or it can work with you until you release it. It requires the handler to be much more patient and persistant than the dog. Ie out last and out wit.

[Kristov]

Do you think a truly low drive dog would be able to get obedience titles and perhaps some other dogsport titles?

Would they need an exceptional or at least experienced trainer to achieve this?

Would they be capable of winning a competition?

Do you think any dog is capable of getting obedience titles, provided the trainer is dedicated enough?

I don't see the point of training an unsuitable animal as it's hard enough to train a suitable one to achieve good results. I can't see exceptional trainer's that have the experience to extract the dog's potential wasting their time training something to a mediocre level when they could train a suitable animal with a greater potential to win and use their time more wisely. Often novice trainers think they will learn something training an unsuitable dog which is true, they learn rather quickly to avoid training unsuitable dogs in the future Highly driven dogs are the easiest to train for the highest level of achievements.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Kristov

[Kristov]

'Vickie' date='3rd Mar 2011 - 10:30 AM' post='5180851'

plenty of very high drive dogs have the ability to switch off & relax when they need to

Here is a video of a young GSD that has been trained to switch off. This dog is apparantly litter pick of a more extreme GSD breeding of similar drive to a working line Malinois and responds to a "time for a rest" command demonstrating that highly driven dogs are trainable and adaptable to living in a home environment contrary to some beliefs