Low Drive Dogs

[aussielover]

Do you think a truly low drive dog would be able to get obedience titles and perhaps some other dogsport titles?

Would they need an exceptional or at least experienced trainer to achieve this?

Would they be capable of winning a competition?

Do you think any dog is capable of getting obedience titles, provided the trainer is dedicated enough?

[fuzzy82]

I wouldn't know about competing with a low drive dog, but you can increase a dog's drive through training, can you not?

[Kavik]

I have one dog with low drive, and allergies. I found it extremely frustrating to try and train him for competition, as he was not interested for very long and his performance was lacklustre. While he enjoys short stints of fun training, I did not feel I could get him to sustain his concentration and work his best for long enough to go to a trial and while in the ring, he did not enjoy either the work or the rewards enough to do so and is much happier just hanging around.

I think if I was really dedicated and had perservered we could have achieved a CCD title, but since my other dogs have high drive and enjoy working, I did not enjoy working with my low drive dog nearly as much, it was not nearly as much fun or as rewarding. I don't know if you would be able to win with a low drive dog - you'd need to be a very good trainer to get the best out of the dog.

[corvus]

Pfft. Drive isn't everything. What's in basic obedience that requires drive?

[The Spotted Devil]

Do you think a truly low drive dog would be able to get obedience titles and perhaps some other dogsport titles?

Would they need an exceptional or at least experienced trainer to achieve this?

Would they be capable of winning a competition?

Do you think any dog is capable of getting obedience titles, provided the trainer is dedicated enough?

I saw a dog described on an agility list as being "high energy - low drive" and the description matched my Dalmatian perfectly. As a youngster he had energy to burn but Dallies are not bred to work closely with people - very independent and aloof and really couldn't give a toss. Not bothered by pats or toys or food. But I have worked and experimented and succeeded and failed on every aspect I can think of. Ziggy has his CCD (3 x 1st place and 90 + scores), 2 legs of his CD (1st & 2nd. Nearly got his 3rd Q with a 198 but I blew it!), his AD (4 x 1st), his JD (2nd, 2 x 3rd, 1 x 4th), 2 JDO passes and 1 JDX pass (1st place). I'm sure when people see him they don't immediately think "low drive" but they only see the end result and not the blood, sweat and tears that got us there The older he gets, the more refined my techniques become and the harder he works in the ring. He will never have the attitude of some of the high drive dogs but I'm absolutely delighted with him. In some ways his steadiness can be a real bonus - rarely knocks a bar when jumping and never takes himself off course without me causing it through poor handling. If he is confident and truly understands the exercise he will do it to the best of his ability. Training my (high energy - high drive) youngster at the moment is certainly a shock to the system

I wouldn't like to speak in general terms - this is just my personal experience.

ETA: He does, as my show trainer loved to say, have an extraordinarily high micturition drive. And yes I do use that as a reward

Edited March 2, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[ness]

I agree with what corvus says. Drive isn't the be all and end all but it does make it easier. I do think any dog with a solid temperament should be able to manage something like a CCD title regardless of drive level. I also believe they are just as capable of winning the class - if they perform the exercises correctly there is nothing that will prevent them from necessarily winning.

On the other hand having a high drive dog can be useless to you if the dog doesn't have the nerves to go with it.

Edited March 2, 2011 by ness

[FHRP]

I have seen slow and disinterested dog compete and title in both obedience and agility. Whether they were "low drive" or were like that due to poor training, physical limitations, breed nature at times I couldn't say. If a dog is trainable, they can get through obedience trials. They might not show the flair and pizazz of some other dogs, but that's not where the majority of points come from. They can get through the lower levels of agility and yes they can even win, many times it is the slow and steady that gets around a Novice course with the fast and furious crashing and burning I have seen some very creative handling with slower dogs in agility, ensuring the dogs don't lose the drive they do have and don't do any further distance than is needed, cutting every corner etc. It is hard work for the handler, but it can get some nice results

Edited March 2, 2011 by FHRP

[Dxenion]

I've been reading a book called Shaping Success and watching a DVD called Crate Games, both by Susan Garrett. Both talk about agility and drive.

In the book, Susan explains how she taught drive and focus to her border collie Buzz and in the DVD, she demonstrates how to increase drive for a toy and how to use that for agility.

Although both focus on agility, we are using some of the methods for other forms of training as it increases the dog's desire to perform the behaviour to get the reward, eventually transferring the desire for the reward onto the required task (or agility equipment).

Both are available online.

[corvus]

I find my high drive dog has difficulties with stationary behaviours and impulse control. Tell Kivi to sit and he's the happiest dog in the world. Tell Erik to sit and he will try to pretend he didn't hear the cue. It took heaps of work to get his sit-stays solid, and if he's having a bad day basically we are back to ridiculously high reward rates. He is extremely easy to train in general, but if he wants to drive forwards, it takes a lot of work to teach him not to. In contrast, Kivi is easy to teach duration behaviours. He's not bouncing all over the place all the time, so there are heaps of opportunities to reward and loads of leeway for timing.

[Aidan3]

Of course, "fitness" is an important factor too.

[RubyStar]

They can get through the lower levels of agility and yes they can even win, many times it is the slow and steady that gets around a Novice course with the fast and furious crashing and burning

You just described Ruby Her first novice jumping trial, she was the slow and steady one, won the ring with the only one getting a clear round, because the fast dogs "crashed and burned" and some handlers were handling their novice dogs like they would their masters dogs, and the dogs couldn't cope.

Edited March 2, 2011 by RubyStar

[Kavik]

I've been reading a book called Shaping Success and watching a DVD called Crate Games, both by Susan Garrett. Both talk about agility and drive.

In the book, Susan explains how she taught drive and focus to her border collie Buzz and in the DVD, she demonstrates how to increase drive for a toy and how to use that for agility.

Although both focus on agility, we are using some of the methods for other forms of training as it increases the dog's desire to perform the behaviour to get the reward, eventually transferring the desire for the reward onto the required task (or agility equipment).

Both are available online.

Buzz was an extremely 'High' dog with a ton of speed and drive, but with difficulty with control and focus. Very different kettle of fish to trying to compete with a dog who would rather sit or lie there than do anything much less run around!

[JulesP]

If the dog is low on all drives then I would say you are fairly buggered. Let us not forget that pack drive is a drive! Brock has pretty much zero prey drive (food or toys). He does have fairly good pack drive though and wants to please. Actually he has high pack drive as when in a paddock of sheep he goes and chats to all the people watching I could get his CD. He is actually quite fun to work with as he just loves being with you.

Pack drive caused some issues with agility as convincing him to leave mummy was hard. He learnt some pretty complex drills though, never knocked bars and didn't go over the wrong obstacles. He went as fast as I went.

[RallyValley]

My dog is the kind that, at home will offer behaviours and go crazy for a piece of kibble or his ball but as soon as he gets in a situation where he is less confidant (i.e away from home at training ect) he will want these items less and has even been known to refuse chicken breast (a fav at home) or his cuz ball (which he starts jumping up and down and whimpering with excitement if you pick it up at home).

So I don't have a "low drive" dog all the time so I usually try and teach all new behaviours in the comfort of home and then reinforce them at training. However having met some really "high drive" or up dogs I think I would find one of them just as challenging to a degree Low drive dogs are easy to live with at least!

My dog enjoys agility, he finds jumping rewarding and if there are jumps up he will take himself over them for fun, once we have the all clear from his physio vet we will be competing again and in the past he has been pretty happy to do this (unless he was sore). He has had 3 "near miss" JD runs (where one stupid error stopped us qualifying) and did quite well at nationals

We are also training towards CCD level obedience, this is more of a challenge! I am a pretty new trainer and although I haven't put any titles on my dog I think we have come pretty far seeings as he is not yet 3 yrs (I think...) and has a few issues So the point is - yes with time and effort you can compete in dog sports with a low drive dog - winning all comes down to how you train and what you expect as a standard before you enter the ring...

[Vickie]

Yes, I think a low drive dog is capable of earning titles in dogsports, providing they have a dedicated and or good handler.

As to whether they can win...depends on the competition. A low drive dog can beat a well trained high drive dog, however it would be unlikely to beat a bunch of them.

I think people often mistake different types of drive for low drive.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My impression of Susan Garrett's dog Buzzy - as described by her in the book and at the Seminar was he had OVER THE TOP drive. He was ballistic excited and did everything to extreme. For her, most of her work with him involved teaching him self control. Ie premack principle - to get what Buzzy wants, first he must do what SG wants.

I've got no idea about whether my dog is high drive or not. She does get excited about chasing cats. And very excited about telling off a certain horse that should not be joining in with a BBQ. And this morning she said she wanted to chase a very rude cocker spaniel around the oval. Sometimes when I let her go, she pretends like she never wanted to do that, and goes sniffing.

I think she could hold her focus long enough to complete obedience trials but I'm not sure I could or even want to.

But we both love agility. She loves chasing and hunting things, and is happy to chase me. Still working on getting her to "go out" or away on command but it's mostly a communication thing, how do I tell her that in a way that she understands as keep paying attention to me but work over there, not permission to go hunt for possums.

[Ons]

this is all so new to me low drive, high drive - I'm still panicking about it all.

I think my golden retreiver Onslow has low drive, he kind of plods around the ring, he loves sit stays because he can have a rest same with stand for examination. He does it all, not with great enthusiasm but we do get a tail wag now and then and he does look me in my eyes for stays. He doesn't seem to object to being at obedience, probably enjoys the one on one time with me. I'm going to persist with him because I am determined that he will get his CCD title, he is a bright boy and he can do everything already required to do the CCD test, just need to sharpen it all up. I'm not ambitious beyond the CCD with him though, would not think of doing agility or anything like that with him - he would hate that.

My coolie pup I think has high drive, she is very enthusiastic, very eager to learn and please me, learns quickly and full of energy. That's high drive isn't it She I have ambitions for, I want her to get her CD and then go into agility

would someone give a dummy like me an explanation of high drive and low drive? Thank you :-)

[Dxenion]

Buzz was an extremely 'High' dog with a ton of speed and drive, but with difficulty with control and focus. Very different kettle of fish to trying to compete with a dog who would rather sit or lie there than do anything much less run around!

From the description of Buzz and some videos I've seen of him, he was indeed an extreme dog! Susan's description of him launching off the top of an A frame and landing 10 feet in front of it had me in stitches. Then there was the time that she mentioned the word 'noodle' in conversation (Buzz's early days cue for weave) which sent Buzz screaming out of the room and zooming back and forth past the door looking for the weave poles. Susan describes laughing so hard she couldn't squeak the command to stop him!

However, I mentioned the book and DVD because Susan showed how to build drive and focus for a toy as a reward and then transfer that to the equipment. I think this could help the OP's low drive dog, worth looking at anyway. One of ours has low drive and it helped us increase his drive and performance of cues.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Dxenion

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think the crate games dvd is great for showing how to reward speed and enthusiasm, instead of rewarding slow plodding behaviours.

But you gotta know what your dog loves and gets excited about and use that to "transfer" the excitement to other things. I guess with some dogs that might be easier than with others.

I suspect with my dog - a lot of it might have to do with my lack of skill. But I have trained a number of other kinds of dogs including Aussie Terror and JRT and the dog I have now has been the hardest to train. Every other random dog at the park is easier. I will have 20 dogs lined up in front of me politely waiting for treats, which they may or may not get, and my dog is away over there, hunting baseballs. Which she trades for treats. Phew.

[aussielover]

I was thinking about this topic after doing this test:

Canine personality test There is a good explanation of drives and what the scores mean at the top and bottom of the page.

Obviously extremely subjective and I always lean towards giving a lower score if i am unsure.

Dogs that are low in all drives apparently are hard to motivate but easy to live with.

Not being an experienced trainer i don't know what i would do if my dog wasn't pretty highly motivated by food and toys or pats/attention.