Mentally Slow Dog?

[Aramiss]

I think my dog Kettle might be intellectually impaired.

She has a lot of trouble learning the simplest things (many years on and she has always been an inside dog but we are still having issues with her toilet training despite taking her out often, using praise and cleaning any messes up really well). She knows how to sit, but only beside her food bowl, she can not remember it if it is not dinner time.

She has trouble with her confidence, even if we use really happy voices she will still slink up to us as if we have yelled at her. She refuses to come when called, when I find her she is usually cowering in her bed, from there I can gently encourage her out but it takes a while. We have owned her since she was young, she has never been hurt or abused at all and our other dogs are happy and confident. We did get her from a pet shop though, she was there for around 6 weeks, we brought her when she was put on sale (I felt so sorry for her, the store she was in was right near my supermarket and I saw her there for weeks before she went on sale, having owned dogs like her all my life I just couldn't stand the thought of leaving her there to a very uncertain fate). When she first came home she was so happy to actually be outside and on the grass, it was heart breaking how happy that simple thing made her.

She gets on well with our smaller dog Fitz, but she seems incapable of learning how to deal with Morgan. Especially when it comes to food so I do separate them at dinner time (since she attacked him for his dinner one night and he mopped the floor with her, he was a lot younger then but still a good deal bigger then her, he is a German shepherd and she is a foxie). If I supervise her she is ok with Fitz and the cat at meal times, but her and Morgan can not have food together at all.

She seems to be constantly fighting with Morgan for dominance, and she usually surrenders when he rolls her over gently, but she wants to be the first at everything especially to the door (causing a huge ruckas when he asserts himself and rolls her over and she fights back, making things worse). If I know someone is coming over I separate them and make sure one of them is outside, but unexpected visitors get the full show. This strikes me as really strange since she lacks the confidence most dominant dogs usually display, it seems to me that she just forgets the rules and is being punished for it.

Today we had a terrible incident between the pair, unknown to me Morgan found a treat (we are moving and there was stuff everywhere, I didn't think there was any food in reach though). He left it when he came out side with me to hang out some sheets, while we were out Kettle got it. When we came back in he immediately went to get his treat back. Kettle bit him on the face and cut his lip which caused him to attack her back, I didn't have a great angle to grab his collar and pull him off her but he did stop on his own (at this point I was probably not being helpful, I was yelling at him to back off and let her up, but didn't want to grab him in case I made it worse or got bit as well, which makes me feel so awful). He avoided the really dangerous areas, but she does have a few minor cuts on her face (I cleaned them up and put her in her crate to rest and settle down).

I'm at bit of a loss here, Morgan is wonderful with Fitz, he lays down and plays gently with him, and I have noticed no dominance struggles between the pair at all despite Fitz rough housing and being cheeky with him (although I suppose the fact that Fitz lets him through doors first and respects the pecking order helps a lot). Morgan is very bright and a pleasure to own, he is gentle and loving with everyone he meets and is usually very good with strange dogs, unless they act aggressively toward him which seems normal). I don't want to leave Morgan or Kettle outside all the time, and I have been ignoring the little minor dominance struggles and just stop it when its getting too rough, but since I'm in the middle of nowhere with very little resources (not even a dog club to turn to) I was hoping someone here could give me some pointers or advice.

[persephone]

yes, I will give you advice

She could well have missed critical stages in puppy hood where important things like toileting habits, and behaviour around other dogs , are normally learned.

Ask folks on here to recommend a very experienced professional in your area,who can assess your dog, and work with you to manage her problems ;)

Edited March 1, 2011 by persephone

[Aidan3]

What sort of training have you attempted to show Kettle what he should do instead of resource guarding and giving Morgan the $#ts? Can he go to a mat and stay there on cue?

I would definitely ramp up the management strategies for now. They don't seem to be solving their own problems and there is a good chance things will escalate. They need to know what to do around food and when visitors come to the door, and these things sound like the obvious priorities, but until you can do that in controlled settings - keep them separated unless you can confidently supervise and control them.

There are several good threads on breaking up dog fights here, familiarise yourself with them in case something goes badly wrong one day. Have a plan in place, just in case. It's a good idea anyway, accidents happen and not necessarily amongst your own dogs.

I have a client with a similar problem at the moment. We just started with each of her dogs individually and taught them exactly what we want them to do in response to a knock on the door. I would suggest you teach them (using positive reinforcement) to go to a mat or crate and stay there in response to a knock on the door. You can do the door knocks at first, then enlist a helper later in the proofing stage.

If they can't be trusted with any food together then separate them somehow (tether, baby gate) and get them used to waiting their turn to take a treat from you. Only reward good manners and deference.

These things are good leadership - you take control. It's not Morgan's job, and although he seems to have done a reasonable job so far, it's not his responsibility and if it comes to any sort of conclusion, you probably won't like his choices! But it won't be his fault.

I'm guessing Kettle was about 12-14 weeks when you got him and missed a hugely important critical period for socialisation? That's a real shame. Not his fault either.

[Aramiss]

I forgot to change my profile, I'm many many hours away from any kind of help. We moved almost a year ago to a really small town, hours away from anything else. There are no dog clubs, trainers, or anything of that type (it was my first thought, I was even hoping to keep up dog obedience training with Morgan, he loved it and was really doing well with it all, I've kept up his training at home, but it's not the same as working in a group). Our one vet spends most of their time out tending to live stock. We have a labradoodle breeder close by though

I don't expect advice from a forum to fix all our issues, just hoping for a little insight I respect that's it is a hard thing to ask people who haven't seen the dogs and how they act, I was hoping maybe someone else had a similar experience and some pointers ;)

[persephone]

Aahh.. apologies.

It does make things very hard , with no one to actually observe and implement strategies

[Aramiss]

Thanks Aidan :p Poor Kettie, she had a horrible puppyhood and yep we did get her at around 14 or 16 weeks old (most of which was spent in the pet shop). She is almost impossible to teach anything really, she forgets things almost instantly, even commands we practice with her constantly. Things like "To your bed" have to be reinforced with me showing her her bed. Then she hops in, stays a minute and is out again. Any high stress time like people at the door and she is impossible to command, she won't listen, just mills around excitedly making a high pitched barking. She is really food driven but she even ignores that if something else is going on. From now on if there is someone at the door I will pop her in her crate with a treat and see if I can't associate someone knocking on the door with going in there (if nothing else it will keep her out of harms way).

I will look up the dog fighting threads, I felt so helpless today that I really do need to get an action plan sorted out. Thanks for the suggestion

I have been separating them around food for a long time now, but I will be more vigilant. I really dropped the ball today, no doubt about that, its the first time they have had food near them together in around a year and hopefully never again, but if there is a next time I will be ready to stop him before blood is drawn.

My husband and I have always been the dominants in our little family, never the dogs, but I think they are having the issues sorting out their own pack orders below us. We never would have gotten such a large dog if there was any doubt about that, I would not risk having a German Shepherd thinking he ruled the roost lol, I can imagine the chaos ;) I will start running training sessions again with them all though (we've been moving and it's been a bit hectic) just to make sure everyone does remember who is boss. At our last house Morgan was not allowed inside, and we moved to this house so we could have him in with us and I think the new dynamic is what is causing more issues, especially since the last time he was allowed inside it was when he was under a year old, and still very much a puppy.

Thanks again, it just feels great to have a chat about it, and to think about what more I can do to keep them all safe and happy

[Nekhbet]

I dont think the dog is intellectually impaired, sounds like the training has not just been right for her status and hence you're having trouble. Trust me I've seen critical period dogs that act like a wild animal and they still capable of learning and listening

unsocialised yes - but that doesnt mean she is totally incapable of learning. Why dont you contact someone like Steve at K9 Force or Steve Austin/Glenn Cook at www.petresortsaustralia.com.au, all know about critical period issues

Edited March 1, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Aramiss]

Yep Phesephone it does make these things so much harder, but even though we are having some dramas at least we are back in the country and out of the darned city

[Aidan3]

Things like "To your bed" have to be reinforced with me showing her her bed. Then she hops in, stays a minute and is out again. Any high stress time like people at the door and she is impossible to command, she won't listen, just mills around excitedly making a high pitched barking.

Ahh, OK. Well to be honest more of them are like that than not like that so I wouldn't write her off just yet! You just need to adjust your training to suit.

Start here: http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Leve...LevelsBook.html and begin with "Go to Mat". If you have to lead her there then you aren't following these instructions Start with just going to the mat, build up the distance you can send her from, worry about how long she stays there later, just click (or use a verbal marker) when she gets to the mat. When you are ready to add duration to staying on the mat, start with 1 second and build up in 1 second increments. From memory, the book explains how to do this.

My husband and I have always been the dominants in our little family, never the dogs, but I think they are having the issues sorting out their own pack orders below us.

It's not their job and forget about "being dominant" - just show them step by step, inch by inch, second by second what to do. Make it easy, make it rewarding. If they can't do it, change what you're doing, make it easier.

We never would have gotten such a large dog if there was any doubt about that, I would not risk having a German Shepherd thinking he ruled the roost lol, I can imagine the chaos

I wouldn't worry too much about that, Morgan sounds like a very tolerant dog who doesn't do such a bad job, and Kettle just sounds a little bit socially inept (probably from missing a critical period of socialisation). He might not think he rules the roost but at the moment he does have to look after himself, and it's a bit beyond him. Management, training, keep it simple, keep it clean, step by step and life will get much easier for him.

[Aramiss]

Thanks for the link Looking it up now.

Yep Morgan is a very tolerant dog, and I was honestly very surprised when he and Kettle developed problems, she's so soft and gentle, and has always loved other animals, including our cat. He is boisterous and still young but really very social and happy.

My mum who is really frightened of larger dogs loves Morgan, her initial reaction to us getting a large dog was something like this (she asked if he would attack her ) but two seconds after meeting him she has nothing but lovely things to say about him. Kettle has always been soft (best word I can think of to describe her personality) she's loving but hates sitting in laps, she will emotionally fall apart if she gets in trouble (usually that involves nothing more then a firm "no") and she seems to prefer the company of other animals then to people, she will only very rarely play with toys.

Now that I think about it, I think I know what the problem is, I was trying to remember when it all started for Kettie, and it wasn't when Morgan got home, it was a while before that.

A few years ago when we lived in Sydney our home was broken into, the dogs were inside at the time. I came home to find the front door wide open (took me a while to realise that we'd been robbed, I thought I must have not shut the latch properly), the dogs were huddled in the lounge room terrified and after I realised what had happened I checked the dogs over to make sure they were ok. Fitz was fine, but a bit frightened, Kettle had a bruise and a small cut on her side, like a boot mark. After that she developed allergies, and I always thought a lot of her problems were from the fact that her skin was so itchy (we've taken her to the vet heaps of times, tried a million different diets, and pills, shampoo's and the works) and that it was distracting and distressing her, but I wouldn't be surprised if that incident had more to do with it.

I will start her on a gentle training program and that might help her confidence levels improve, as well as keeping her away from high stress situations (which is when Morgan usually gets agro at her). I'll keep treating her skin condition, and keep her calm, and see how it all goes. I think we might have to arrange for an allergy test at some point, and hopefully get her a vaccine for it. Her old vet was looking at eliminating things from her environment and seeing what helped but honestly we didn't see any improvement. I guess her behaviour has declined so slowly we just thought she was a bit slow, but I'm hoping it is something we can cure to make her a bit happier, and for her and Morgan to get along a bit better. If nothing else I will just keep them segregated when there is a lot going on, and reward them for getting along when things are calm (verbally no treats lol).

[perfect partners]

Thanks for the link Looking it up now.

Yep Morgan is a very tolerant dog, and I was honestly very surprised when he and Kettle developed problems, she's so soft and gentle, and has always loved other animals, including our cat. He is boisterous and still young but really very social and happy.

My mum who is really frightened of larger dogs loves Morgan, her initial reaction to us getting a large dog was something like this (she asked if he would attack her :p ) but two seconds after meeting him she has nothing but lovely things to say about him. Kettle has always been soft (best word I can think of to describe her personality) she's loving but hates sitting in laps, she will emotionally fall apart if she gets in trouble (usually that involves nothing more then a firm "no") and she seems to prefer the company of other animals then to people, she will only very rarely play with toys.

Now that I think about it, I think I know what the problem is, I was trying to remember when it all started for Kettie, and it wasn't when Morgan got home, it was a while before that.

A few years ago when we lived in Sydney our home was broken into, the dogs were inside at the time. I came home to find the front door wide open (took me a while to realise that we'd been robbed, I thought I must have not shut the latch properly), the dogs were huddled in the lounge room terrified and after I realised what had happened I checked the dogs over to make sure they were ok. Fitz was fine, but a bit frightened, Kettle had a bruise and a small cut on her side, like a boot mark. After that she developed allergies, and I always thought a lot of her problems were from the fact that her skin was so itchy (we've taken her to the vet heaps of times, tried a million different diets, and pills, shampoo's and the works) and that it was distracting and distressing her, but I wouldn't be surprised if that incident had more to do with it.

I will start her on a gentle training program and that might help her confidence levels improve, as well as keeping her away from high stress situations (which is when Morgan usually gets agro at her). I'll keep treating her skin condition, and keep her calm, and see how it all goes. I think we might have to arrange for an allergy test at some point, and hopefully get her a vaccine for it. Her old vet was looking at eliminating things from her environment and seeing what helped but honestly we didn't see any improvement. I guess her behaviour has declined so slowly we just thought she was a bit slow, but I'm hoping it is something we can cure to make her a bit happier, and for her and Morgan to get along a bit better. If nothing else I will just keep them segregated when there is a lot going on, and reward them for getting along when things are calm (verbally no treats lol).

I'm sure you would find Steve at K9 Pro very helpful. He also runs distance training programs. Also have a look at the Leerburg website. They have a lot of good articles and podcasts and excellent DVDs - on pack structure, dealing with dominant and aggressive dogs and general training, feeding etc.

Edited March 1, 2011 by perfect partners

[Aramiss]

I'm sure you would find Steve at K9 Pro very helpful. He also runs distance training programs. Also have a look at the Leerburg website. They have a lot of good articles and podcasts and excellent DVDs - on pack structure, dealing with dominant and aggressive dogs and general training, feeding etc.

Thanks will do