Sheridan Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 And again, you're okay with being lumped in with the puppyfarmer who breeds a bitch every season in deplorable conditions and then throws her away? It's amazing that this is okay with you, that you're unwilling to judge such a person because it's meaningless and negative and general. Amazing. No one is saying they want to be "stand with" or be "lumped with" bad or unethical practice.They are hoping that good practice can be universaly sought by various groups in the ways that suit them and work for them.That they can clearly see problems within their own groups and work to clean them up.Take personal responsibility for seeing their own group is beyond reproach before pointing the finger at some one else. The above example may not be a "puppy farm",but it is certainly my idea of a BYBer.Are they unethical? Should we be pushing for laws to make it impossible for them to breed dogs at all because their ideals are not ours? Should THEY be forced to stand with the puppy farmers in their corner? There are no clear definitions of Registered,Ethical breeders,BYBers or puppy farmers yet. You can criticise all you want and no doubt find justification with generalizations.Just don't be suprised that they do the same with their criticism of the pedigree show breeders. There are some pedigree show breeders that should be condemned alongside the puppyfarmers and the BYBs who keep their dogs in conditions that I have described in this thread because they're little more than puppyfarmers and BYBs themselves. I just find it astounding that some people in this thread are unwilling to condemn such people whether registered, puppyfarmer or BYB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shazzapug Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 When I read the OP i was laughing, laughing cos what I was reading was true....but then I felt offended because the OP lumped all breeders together, the fact that Puppy farmers and BYB's were in the "breeders" category was offensive to me and against all I stand for in ethics morals and integrity. We have had so much lately on DOL concerning Breeding and breeders and councils and laws etc that I think it has been flogged to death. And I think shortstep is very very clever in starting threads as he does and then bait and encourage people to post their opinions and use them for his purpose. It is such an individual thing, this breeding....I for one have such high morals and ethics and integrity that I make myself sick.....but thats the way I have been brought up and because of that I have ZERO tolerance for people that keep dogs in plastic crates tied together. I will never join as one with breeders like this that have no morals, no ethics, and no integrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 And again, you're okay with being lumped in with the puppyfarmer who breeds a bitch every season in deplorable conditions and then throws her away? It's amazing that this is okay with you, that you're unwilling to judge such a person because it's meaningless and negative and general. Amazing. No one is saying they want to be "stand with" or be "lumped with" bad or unethical practice.They are hoping that good practice can be universaly sought by various groups in the ways that suit them and work for them.That they can clearly see problems within their own groups and work to clean them up.Take personal responsibility for seeing their own group is beyond reproach before pointing the finger at some one else. The above example may not be a "puppy farm",but it is certainly my idea of a BYBer.Are they unethical? Should we be pushing for laws to make it impossible for them to breed dogs at all because their ideals are not ours? Should THEY be forced to stand with the puppy farmers in their corner? There are no clear definitions of Registered,Ethical breeders,BYBers or puppy farmers yet. You can criticise all you want and no doubt find justification with generalizations.Just don't be suprised that they do the same with their criticism of the pedigree show breeders. There are some pedigree show breeders that should be condemned alongside the puppyfarmers and the BYBs who keep their dogs in conditions that I have described in this thread because they're little more than puppyfarmers and BYBs themselves. I just find it astounding that some people in this thread are unwilling to condemn such people whether registered, puppyfarmer or BYB. Exactly.The lines are very blurred yet the terms are used with derogatory venom to critisise each other with no real progress made to solve genuine problems.Condemn bad practice,but don't divide with labels into groups. If you choose to stand alone there is little support or sympathy. Just more laws proposed that will make breeding ever harder for those who are already doing their best .The most ethical of registered breeders will admitt there are problems that they as a group must work on. Pedigree / Show breeders have taken a beating in the media.Their future may be at stake. Nor are the worst of puppy farmers being condoned but I can't demand all puppy farmers be driven out of bussiness untill I can define what a puppy farmer is.What sets him apart from a breeders who just has more dogs than i think is ideal? Responsible and caring practice is not confined to one group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 I have ZERO tolerance for people that keep dogs in plastic crates tied together. Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 pedigree show breeders that should be condemnedpuppyfarmers and the BYBs who keep their dogs in conditions that I have described little more than puppyfarmers and BYBs Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 puppyfarmer who breeds a bitch every season in deplorable conditions and then throws her away? Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 dog breeder that crams ten dogs to a cage that has a wire floor and covered in faeces Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 dog breeder that crams ten dogs to a cage that has a wire floor and covered in faeces Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Nice try but no prize. Deflecting your own lack of condemnation of people who keep dogs in deplorable conditions just makes me wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 And again, you're okay with being lumped in with the puppyfarmer who breeds a bitch every season in deplorable conditions and then throws her away? It's amazing that this is okay with you, that you're unwilling to judge such a person because it's meaningless and negative and general. Amazing. No one is saying they want to be "stand with" or be "lumped with" bad or unethical practice.They are hoping that good practice can be universaly sought by various groups in the ways that suit them and work for them.That they can clearly see problems within their own groups and work to clean them up.Take personal responsibility for seeing their own group is beyond reproach before pointing the finger at some one else. The above example may not be a "puppy farm",but it is certainly my idea of a BYBer.Are they unethical? Should we be pushing for laws to make it impossible for them to breed dogs at all because their ideals are not ours? Should THEY be forced to stand with the puppy farmers in their corner? There are no clear definitions of Registered,Ethical breeders,BYBers or puppy farmers yet. You can criticise all you want and no doubt find justification with generalizations.Just don't be suprised that they do the same with their criticism of the pedigree show breeders. There are some pedigree show breeders that should be condemned alongside the puppyfarmers and the BYBs who keep their dogs in conditions that I have described in this thread because they're little more than puppyfarmers and BYBs themselves. I just find it astounding that some people in this thread are unwilling to condemn such people whether registered, puppyfarmer or BYB. I think condemnation of ANY ill treatment of ANY animal is a given on any animal lovers forum. Not just breeders but all who have taken any responsiblility for the care and welfare of a dependent creature. Does the obvious always need stating??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 dog breeder that crams ten dogs to a cage that has a wire floor and covered in faeces Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Nice try but no prize. Deflecting your own lack of condemnation of people who keep dogs in deplorable conditions just makes me wonder. Sheridan if you know about abuse you need to report it. I can say it a few more times if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I think Shortstep likes to stir up the Bee's nest and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 dog breeder that crams ten dogs to a cage that has a wire floor and covered in faeces Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Nice try but no prize. Deflecting your own lack of condemnation of people who keep dogs in deplorable conditions just makes me wonder. Sheridan if you know about abuse you need to report it. I can say it a few more times if you like. Perhaps Sheridan is referring to previous well domumented and already reported cases of abuse and citing these as examples of what she finds deplorable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I think a large part of the problem is the lack of definition for the groups of breeders. For me I want the dogs and their offspring kept in good conditions, their lives enriched, their medical needs attended to, health tests done and dogs and bitches who fail those tests are not bred from, healthy sound puppies going to good homes. Some breeders don't do the above so I would not buy a puppy from them. I am not sure that I want to put anything else into the criteria except the welfare of the dogs so I really don;t care if the breeder doesn't show the dogs and I am conflicted about whether I require the breeder to belong to the ANKC.....I am still thinking this criteria through. What I really am sure of is I want healthy puppies with great temperaments coming from happy healthy parents with great temperaments who have all been enriched during their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I think a large part of the problem is the lack of definition for the groups of breeders.For me I want the dogs and their offspring kept in good conditions, their lives enriched, their medical needs attended to, health tests done and dogs and bitches who fail those tests are not bred from, healthy sound puppies going to good homes. Some breeders don't do the above so I would not buy a puppy from them. I am not sure that I want to put anything else into the criteria except the welfare of the dogs so I really don;t care if the breeder doesn't show the dogs and I am conflicted about whether I require the breeder to belong to the ANKC.....I am still thinking this criteria through. What I really am sure of is I want healthy puppies with great temperaments coming from happy healthy parents with great temperaments who have all been enriched during their lives. So you are saying that as long as the parents are health tested and all the boxes are ticked re conditions both physical and emotional for all concerned it doesn't matter if the dogs are unregistered or even crossbred? Or have I misunderstood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 dog breeder that crams ten dogs to a cage that has a wire floor and covered in faeces Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Nice try but no prize. Deflecting your own lack of condemnation of people who keep dogs in deplorable conditions just makes me wonder. Sheridan if you know about abuse you need to report it. I can say it a few more times if you like. How very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I think a large part of the problem is the lack of definition for the groups of breeders.For me I want the dogs and their offspring kept in good conditions, their lives enriched, their medical needs attended to, health tests done and dogs and bitches who fail those tests are not bred from, healthy sound puppies going to good homes. Some breeders don't do the above so I would not buy a puppy from them. I am not sure that I want to put anything else into the criteria except the welfare of the dogs so I really don;t care if the breeder doesn't show the dogs and I am conflicted about whether I require the breeder to belong to the ANKC.....I am still thinking this criteria through. What I really am sure of is I want healthy puppies with great temperaments coming from happy healthy parents with great temperaments who have all been enriched during their lives. So you are saying that as long as the parents are health tested and all the boxes are ticked re conditions both physical and emotional for all concerned it doesn't matter if the dogs are unregistered or even crossbred? Or have I misunderstood? No you haven't misunderstood I wasn't clear because I am thinking things through . I have heard so many stories from ANKC registered breeders saying other ANKC registered breeders are bad or are doing bad things to the dogs. This has surprised me. The one thing I used to count on to sort out the wheat from the chaff has been taken away from me, ie I only ever bought pedigree puppies from ANKC registered breeders. So now I have to think in a different way and say that the ANKC registration and an ANKC registered breeder are no longer a part of my criteria and I need to really think what would be my criteria. What I know is I want to know the lineage of my dog so they would have to be registered and I want to be sure of the temperament. So I want a dog to be registered and but not necessarily with ANKC papers and I now do not have as my criteria that the breeder is ANKC registered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shazzapug Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I have ZERO tolerance for people that keep dogs in plastic crates tied together. Since you have first hand knowledge of this abuse you need to report it. Can you please let us know you have done this. Well documented photos of a recent Puppy farm rescue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 No you haven't misunderstood I wasn't clear because I am thinking things through . I have heard so many stories from ANKC registered breeders saying other ANKC registered breeders are bad or are doing bad things to the dogs. This has surprised me. The one thing I used to count on to sort out the wheat from the chaff has been taken away from me, ie I only ever bought pedigree puppies from ANKC registered breeders. So now I have to think in a different way and say that the ANKC registration and an ANKC registered breeder are no longer a part of my criteria and I need to really think what would be my criteria. What I know is I want to know the lineage of my dog so they would have to be registered and I want to be sure of the temperament. So I want a dog to be registered and but not necessarily with ANKC papers and I now do not have as my criteria that the breeder is ANKC registered. There are a number of registered breeders I know who do this and I'm not the only person who knows them who thinks they ought to be locked in a room together to have it out. Thing is, you can't stop people from bad mouthing each other but not criticising those who are puppyfarmers who keep dogs in bad conditions or BYB who don't health test isn't going to stop people from bad mouthing each other and it actually validates puppyfarmers and BYBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) No you haven't misunderstood I wasn't clear because I am thinking things through . I have heard so many stories from ANKC registered breeders saying other ANKC registered breeders are bad or are doing bad things to the dogs. This has surprised me. The one thing I used to count on to sort out the wheat from the chaff has been taken away from me, ie I only ever bought pedigree puppies from ANKC registered breeders. So now I have to think in a different way and say that the ANKC registration and an ANKC registered breeder are no longer a part of my criteria and I need to really think what would be my criteria. What I know is I want to know the lineage of my dog so they would have to be registered and I want to be sure of the temperament. So I want a dog to be registered and but not necessarily with ANKC papers and I now do not have as my criteria that the breeder is ANKC registered. There are a number of registered breeders I know who do this and I'm not the only person who knows them who thinks they ought to be locked in a room together to have it out. Thing is, you can't stop people from bad mouthing each other but not criticising those who are puppyfarmers who keep dogs in bad conditions or BYB who don't health test isn't going to stop people from bad mouthing each other and it actually validates puppyfarmers and BYBs. Yes I agree. The thing is, what I don't understand is why people say these things but do nothing. The other thing is breeders and others complain about circumstances and situations that are allowable by the kennel club's CoE and legally so really they shouldn't be complaining publicly about the breeders but should be complaining to the powers to be that set the rules. I think pedigree dog breeding is under the pump and if we don't watch out the situation will be irredeemable. Edited March 2, 2011 by Jaxx'sBuddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I think Shortstep likes to stir up the Bee's nest and see what happens. Maybe so, many would have tackled the same topic differently, but one thing's for sure, if I have understood it correctly, the points made in this article/thread are well worth considering. When I started reading this thread, I dismissed it as extremist. The more I read & think about it, the more valid I see the warnings to be. I'm surprised at how many people in this thread seem to have missed the whole point of it. One day it might be too late, I hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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