Guest Labradork Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Hi all, Wondering if some of you may be able to shed some light on your experiences with skin allergies and demodicosis (i.e. demodex mite / demodectic mange), particularly with reference to anything current. Both of my Labs have been experiencing uncharacteristically bad itching since about November 2010. My pets are all treated for fleas on a monthly basis using Frontline Plus. However, I came up in a couple of bites myself, so I questioned whether the treatment hadn't been as effective due to a particularly bad season. I'm conscious that the weather has been doing all sorts of things lately, and fleas/allergies/bugs are out of control this year. As a result, I went on a massive flea killing spree; along with washing then treating the dogs & cat, I also washed all the beds, sprayed the carpets... you name it, I did it. Now, approx two months later, my eldest dog (2 year + 2 month male black Lab) came up in a very itchy dry red rash on his right knee, inner leg and stomach/groin, coinciding with some loss/thinning of hair in that area. He did experience a very minor reaction to the demodex mite about 6-12mths ago on his face, which was resolved by treating with diluted Pyohex shampoo as directed by the Vet. At our most recent consultation, the Vet (after clearing for fleas) took a skin scraping and saw no evidence of demodicosis (although did warn that a skin scraping was not necessarily conclusive). We resolved that it may be a plant allergy such as the Wandering Jew which is quite persistent in our area, and that the hair loss may be as a result of persistent licking/chewing. Vet prescribed Fuciderm ointment to be applied 3x daily (FYI, this is an antibiotic/steroid treatment with anti-inflammatory and anti-itch properties). Results have been great where the ointment has been applied, however I have now just noticed an occurrence of the rash on the opposite knee Whilst I am not a Vet, or even a Vet nurse, and I don't want to jump the gun, my gut feeling is that the rash doesn't present as a stereotypical skin allergy. For a start, in a contact-based allergic reaction (such as rubbing against a plant), I would expect the rash to be most prevalent around the most exposed areas of skin - this doesn't seem to be the case. I was advised by the Vet during our first onset of demodicosis in mid-2010 that this was quite normal for puppies/elderly dogs (due to weak immune systems) but that adult dogs with fully developed and robust immune systems shouldn't really experience it. In the case that adult dogs do show cases of demodicosis, this may point to an underlying issue such as an immunosuppressive diseases. However, I was also advised that approx 25% of cases are idiopathic (i.e. spontaneously reccurring for unknown reasons) over a follow-up period of 1-2 years. I know there is a whole host of other conditions that this could be- including a reaction to something ingested- but I'm keen to hear others' experiences and find out if this is common. We're JUST in the throes of purchasing Pet Insurance too, so chewing nails down to the quick about resolving this so that it doesn't become classed as a "pre-existing condition"! Also, does anyone have any good diet tips for dogs experiencing such conditions? We are currently feeding Hill's SD but looking to change to an all-natural/holistic diet after being 'enlightened' by DOLers Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labradork Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Oh and by the way - yes we will consult the Vet if this persists/worsens (next step would be systemic/oral antibiotics)!! But in the meantime, just hoping to understand others' opinions/experiences in an attempt to gain a better understanding. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 If it helps, generally speaking, Demodex doesn't usually make them itchy - it's more just symptoms of hair loss. But obviously there are some cases where there are reactions to the mites which can cause more severe symptoms. The fact you mentioned from November does coincide with the 'allergy season' but could also mean that a plant has sprung up which is irritating to them like the wandering jew like you mentioned. As for the knee, whilst you are right in that you usually see contact problems in less hair covered areas, don't discount it based on that. For example, my boy is pretty allergic and is itchy all over. The allergies they have aren't always contact, so they can inhale pollens, absorb them through the skin etc and have a general all over reaction, causing itching all over. Sometimes too, one area may have just encountered a plant and become slightly itchy, which they have a chew at and then make worse and results in them licking more because of the damage they caused than being itchy, if you know what I mean. Again I'll use my boy as an eg - he gets itchy feet sometimes and will have a bit of a chew and can maybe go a bit deep and get some blood. He then goes nuts licking at the blood and causes a bigger wound. So whilst he's not itchy there anymore, he still has areas of rawness because he just won't leave them alone. If it's itchy, then it's going to be a reaction to a plant/insect or an allergy. If he's just licking at it, being on a joint its possible it may be a little sore? But from the history you give of previous rashes in the same place, I'd go with that for starters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 It would be more likely to be sarcoptic mites as demodex isn't itchy or contagious. Is the scratching confined to the tummy legs and head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 We're JUST in the throes of purchasing Pet Insurance too, so chewing nails down to the quick about resolving this so that it doesn't become classed as a "pre-existing condition"! Unfortunately it's too late. Pet Insurance companies see Skin as one condition so for example if you saw the Vet for allergies 10 years ago and now said dog has Mange then they won't cover it. Been there done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keira&Phoenix Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 My dog has had demodex and it cost over $1000 dollars to clear up, she just started thinning and then losing hair on spots on her body that was when she was 4 months old. No recurrence since. In saying that she currently has dry skin/fur and thinning fur around her spine at the base of her tail and towards the middle of her back, her hair is also uneven around parts of her body. I am currently seeing a Chiropractic/Homeopath Vet (she has HD as well) and he has given me Homeopathic treatments which seem to be working, her skin is clearing up and becoming less dry and her fur is shinier now, its only been a week. He seems to think its just an imbalance in her system and that he can clear it up 100% with natural treatments including what I am currently giving her and Chinese herbs which I will get in a few weeks. When I get home I will find out the name of the products I am using they are both natural and are used on humans as well. As someone else mentioned if you have previously visited a vet for ANY skin condition it will not be covered by any insurance you purchase now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) If you don't know what it is, you can't treat it. You need a diagnosis first, not after trying other remedies. I'd be wanting to see a skin specialist. I am no fan of monthly spot treatments for fleas. Its another chemical assault on a dog that may or may not be needed. I say treat them when you find them, not as a preventative. Edited March 1, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) Demodex normally starts around the muzzle and eyes. I would suggest it is some kind of allergy, perhaps see a skin specialist as others have recommended. To my knowledge and experience, the area affected is often a good indicator of what is causing the issue. Near the base of the tail and on the back - flea bite allergy On the underneath side of the paws and the abdomen and chest - contact allergy Around the chest, neck and underarms and hind legs - diet or atopic allergy Around the muzzle and eyes and forehead - demodectic mites Everywhere - sarcoptic mites Sometimes obviously there might a combination of allergens and or conditions that will see more than one area being affected. Edited to note - skin allergens that are due to intolerance and yeast related also will often cause recurrent ear/eye infections. Edited March 1, 2011 by ~Anne~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) If you don't know what it is, you can't treat it.You need a diagnosis first, not after trying other remedies. I'd be wanting to see a skin specialist. I am no fan of monthly spot treatments for fleas. Its another chemical assault on a dog that may or may not be needed. I say treat them when you find them, not as a preventative. (next step would be systemic/oral antibiotics) Why? was a bacterial infection diagnosed? Giving antibiotics 'just in case' is probably not a wise decision, given how bacteria are becoming resistant . Your next step would be to consult a dermatologist , I think. Being that the rash is on teh relatively less haired parts of the body, I would strongly suspect an allergic reaction... could be pollen or grass, or fungal spores ... all sorts of things can be allergens! problems with skin are often only able to be treated after a long process of exclusions/tests ... best of luck - but give you & your dog the best chance of a speedy diagnosis by seeing a derm. Edited March 1, 2011 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Demodex normally starts around the muzzle and eyes. I would suggest it is some kind of allergy, perhaps see a skin specialist as others have recommended.To my knowledge and experience, the area affected is often a good indicator of what is causing the issue. Near the base of the tail and on the back - flea bite allergy On the underneath side of the paws and the abdomen and chest - contact allergy Around the chest, neck and underarms and hind legs - diet or atopic allergy Around the muzzle and eyes and forehead - demodectic mites Everywhere - sarcoptic mites Sometimes obviously there might a combination of allergens and or conditions that will see more than one area being affected. Edited to note - skin allergens that are due to intolerance and yeast related also will often cause recurrent ear/eye infections. Hmmm I disagree with this as my dog licks his paws when he is itchy but he does not have a contact allergy, he is atopic and has food allergies. I find food makes him lick/chew his paws and legs. Go and see a dermatologist, its your best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Demodex normally starts around the muzzle and eyes. I would suggest it is some kind of allergy, perhaps see a skin specialist as others have recommended.To my knowledge and experience, the area affected is often a good indicator of what is causing the issue. Near the base of the tail and on the back - flea bite allergy On the underneath side of the paws and the abdomen and chest - contact allergy Around the chest, neck and underarms and hind legs - diet or atopic allergy Around the muzzle and eyes and forehead - demodectic mites Everywhere - sarcoptic mites Sometimes obviously there might a combination of allergens and or conditions that will see more than one area being affected. Edited to note - skin allergens that are due to intolerance and yeast related also will often cause recurrent ear/eye infections. Hmmm I disagree with this as my dog licks his paws when he is itchy but he does not have a contact allergy, he is atopic and has food allergies. I find food makes him lick/chew his paws and legs. Go and see a dermatologist, its your best bet. +1 My dog has her muzzle and eyes, tummy, underarms, hind legs and between the paws affected, basically everywhere except her back. This summer has been a really bad season for allergies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Demodex normally starts around the muzzle and eyes. I would suggest it is some kind of allergy, perhaps see a skin specialist as others have recommended.To my knowledge and experience, the area affected is often a good indicator of what is causing the issue. Near the base of the tail and on the back - flea bite allergy On the underneath side of the paws and the abdomen and chest - contact allergy Around the chest, neck and underarms and hind legs - diet or atopic allergy Around the muzzle and eyes and forehead - demodectic mites Everywhere - sarcoptic mites Sometimes obviously there might a combination of allergens and or conditions that will see more than one area being affected. Edited to note - skin allergens that are due to intolerance and yeast related also will often cause recurrent ear/eye infections. Hmmm I disagree with this as my dog licks his paws when he is itchy but he does not have a contact allergy, he is atopic and has food allergies. I find food makes him lick/chew his paws and legs. Go and see a dermatologist, its your best bet. +1 My dog has her muzzle and eyes, tummy, underarms, hind legs and between the paws affected, basically everywhere except her back. This summer has been a really bad season for allergies Mason also gets a very itchy muzzle and face!! Drives him and me nuts as he will rub his face on me if I let him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Hmmm I disagree with this as my dog licks his paws when he is itchy but he does not have a contact allergy, he is atopic and has food allergies. I find food makes him lick/chew his paws and legs. Go and see a dermatologist, its your best bet. I said it is often a good indicator, not that it was absolute. The Vet takes into account where the skin irritation is when determining a diagnoses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Hmmm I disagree with this as my dog licks his paws when he is itchy but he does not have a contact allergy, he is atopic and has food allergies. I find food makes him lick/chew his paws and legs. Go and see a dermatologist, its your best bet. I said it is often a good indicator, not that it was absolute. The Vet takes into account where the skin irritation is when determining a diagnoses. If the vet is good he will be sending the dog off to a dermatlogist and only diagnosing after the dog has had allergy tests. I just feel that without allergy testing you are farting against thunder so to speak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 From my readings on the subject I found literature that said that steroid cream often had no effect on a skin problem that was caused by food. My neocort cream certainly wasn't helping my dog. So your cream is working so I would think food maybe wasn't an issue. Frontline Plus treats mites. So maybe knock that off the list too. You could try Revolution next time as that also does mites. Your treatment of the other leg worked. So I would use that treatment on this leg. I would also stalk the dog around a bit and see what it gets up to. Were it is sitting, rubbing etc. I am doing a food elimination diet with my dog and fed her something that caused a flair up and she got itchy. She was then going and rubbing her head in ..... wandering jew so that was then causing itching and she wasn't getting better from the food issue. Neocort cream and a wash fixed the wandering jew and we are all clear again. I don't think I would call wandering jew an allergy issue though as I think pretty much all dogs would react like all humans would react to stinging nettle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 as I think pretty much all dogs would react like all humans would react to stinging nettle. except that the stinging nettle has tiny hollow hairs and a toxin , causing pain/burning...not really an allergic response . The wandering dew leaves do NOT have such things... (afaik) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stacyk Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) I have owned two dogs that suffered from reoccuring demodex. In my opinion it was caused by food/skin allergies which then developed into demodex (demodex was secondary to the immune drop caused by the inflamation the allergies caused). I always found symptoms started as either pimples on the stomach or as hot itchy feet. The first sign was always lots licking on the feet. If untreated correctly it would flair up into a wet, hot rash loaded with demodex (positive scrapings were taken). After extensive vet bills I found the best solution was controlled food. No snack, treats what so ever and fed them on barf only with added omegas. However this would work fine in winter but spring/allergy season I would have to use medication to control as well (dectomax). Both were desexed as I did not want these lines with these issues but it did not help improve their issues. EDIT to add, treatment of by-weekly advocate did not clear it up, using medication was only a temporary fix unless food/allergens were fixed as well. Edited March 2, 2011 by stacyk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 as I think pretty much all dogs would react like all humans would react to stinging nettle. except that the stinging nettle has tiny hollow hairs and a toxin , causing pain/burning...not really an allergic response . The wandering dew leaves do NOT have such things... (afaik) It is an irritant plant, as in the majority of dogs will react to it. It does have tiny little hairs, don't know if it is them that cause the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I have owned two dogs that suffered from reoccuring demodex.In my opinion it was caused by food/skin allergies which then developed into demodex (demodex was secondary to the immune drop caused by the inflamation the allergies caused). I always found symptoms started as either pimples on the stomach or as hot itchy feet. The first sign was always lots licking on the feet. If untreated correctly it would flair up into a wet, hot rash loaded with demodex (positive scrapings were taken). After extensive vet bills I found the best solution was controlled food. No snack, treats what so ever and fed them on barf only with added omegas. However this would work fine in winter but spring/allergy season I would have to use medication to control as well (dectomax). Both were desexed as I did not want these lines with these issues but it did not help improve their issues. EDIT to add, treatment of by-weekly advocate did not clear it up, using medication was only a temporary fix unless food/allergens were fixed as well. That's interesting. I haven't heard of that line of thought before but it sounds reasonable. Rappie - where are you? I'd like to hear another view on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I have owned two dogs that suffered from reoccuring demodex.In my opinion it was caused by food/skin allergies which then developed into demodex (demodex was secondary to the immune drop caused by the inflamation the allergies caused). I always found symptoms started as either pimples on the stomach or as hot itchy feet. The first sign was always lots licking on the feet. If untreated correctly it would flair up into a wet, hot rash loaded with demodex (positive scrapings were taken). After extensive vet bills I found the best solution was controlled food. No snack, treats what so ever and fed them on barf only with added omegas. However this would work fine in winter but spring/allergy season I would have to use medication to control as well (dectomax). Both were desexed as I did not want these lines with these issues but it did not help improve their issues. EDIT to add, treatment of by-weekly advocate did not clear it up, using medication was only a temporary fix unless food/allergens were fixed as well. That's interesting. I haven't heard of that line of thought before but it sounds reasonable. Rappie - where are you? I'd like to hear another view on it. Not Rappie but I am atopic When my allergies are bad it certainly knocks the stuffing out of me and other things will flair up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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