Joan of Arc Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I realise that 'diet' has been done to death here on DOL but we have had a health issue with one of our Labs and the vet has said that it could be a combination of things but that diet as part of the environment could have been an issue during the growing stage. Both too much calcium and too much protein have been discussed and here is the question. We have a new baby Clumber and in converstation with our vets over the other issue with the Lab he recommended that we feed her a low protein diet to avoid excessive growth too early. So my questions to the DOLers are: What do you consider to be low protein? How much protein should a pup have? The vet said she should be having the large / heavy breed biscuits if we are feeding biscuits. Do you agree? If you are feeding biscuits would you only feed biscuits and no additives? What do you feed your dogs if they are a large breed? Do you consider a Clumber Spaniel are larger / heavy breed? As I said, its been done before but I am interested in people's responses and of course always prepared to share and absorb information. Our dogs have always been healthy and strong and we usually feed a combination diet so our baby labs and the clumber at 16 weeks are fed twice a day and usually get: Breakfast: 3/4 cup of biscuits ( currently using Advance and switching for Puppy Growth Plus to Large / Giant breeds so about 1/2 cup of PGP and 1/4 to 1/2 of Large breed) and some mince or chicken meat or maybe a neck - and a slurp of yoghurt. Dinner: cup of mixed biscuits and some chopped beef or chicken, a teaspoon of glaucosamine, a 1/4 teaspoon ester C and 5 mls troy calcium. One night a week they get an egg, one night they get a tin of sardines. Every second night the babies get a lamb bone to chew. So any suggestions, condemnations or alterations are gratefully accepted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 why the extra calcium? The dry food is balanced plus the bones are full of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 considering the pup is also getting kibble, 5mls of calcium per day on top of everything else sounds a lot. What kind of mince are you feeding and how much? I would be feeding meat off the bone instead of pure mince or 'pet mince' and decrease how much they get. If they're nice and lean you shouldnt be over doing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan of Arc Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 why the extra calcium?The dry food is balanced plus the bones are full of it. This is part of the question.... only following the breeder's insturctions... never had a clumber before... not what I would do for a lab but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 is it 5ml per meal or 5ml per kg of pure meat? If the dog was getting no kibble and just pure meat then 5ml per 5kg is the daily dose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 why the extra calcium?The dry food is balanced plus the bones are full of it. This is part of the question.... only following the breeder's insturctions... never had a clumber before... not what I would do for a lab but.... so the labs aren't getting it? The diet is what you are feeding the clumber only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan of Arc Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 considering the pup is also getting kibble, 5mls of calcium per day on top of everything else sounds a lot.What kind of mince are you feeding and how much? I would be feeding meat off the bone instead of pure mince or 'pet mince' and decrease how much they get. If they're nice and lean you shouldnt be over doing it when I say mince, they usually get chopped beef or a chicken frame and the clumber gets chicken meat... not often mince.... and the labs get meat off the bone - lamb flaps or pelvis bones or meaty offcuts - but the breeder of the clumber said no chicken frames as they cant hanlde them... as I said to Rebanne, never had a clumber before so a real learning curve I have never fed my dogs pet mince ... Rebanne can tell you that my dogs are very healthy and I always thought we were doing the right thing but now someone has planted the seed of doubt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan of Arc Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 why the extra calcium?The dry food is balanced plus the bones are full of it. This is part of the question.... only following the breeder's insturctions... never had a clumber before... not what I would do for a lab but.... so the labs aren't getting it? The diet is what you are feeding the clumber only? The diet is exactly what the clumber and the lab pup get but teh clumber gets the calcium as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan of Arc Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) is it 5ml per meal or 5ml per kg of pure meat? If the dog was getting no kibble and just pure meat then 5ml per 5kg is the daily dose. Sorry Nekbhet - its 5ml per day.... and she is now about 12 kgs Edited February 28, 2011 by mercedes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Rebanne can tell you that my dogs are very healthy and I always thought we were doing the right thing but now someone has planted the seed of doubt... yes beautiful healthy dogs I have had that seed of doubt too, makes you 2nd guess everything you have done or didn't do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan of Arc Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Rebanne can tell you that my dogs are very healthy and I always thought we were doing the right thing but now someone has planted the seed of doubt... yes beautiful healthy dogs I have had that seed of doubt too, makes you 2nd guess everything you have done or didn't do! Rebanne - have PMed you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Kelpies Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Mercedes you have my sympathy. Here you are trying to do the right thing but those "seeds of doubt" are growing. I think we've all known those seeds from time to time. No matter what you feed your dogs, there will always be someone fertilizing those seeds and telling you that you are doing the wrong thing. All you can do is do your research and find advice that makes sense to you and stick with it. These quotes are from web articles that make sense to me. "Recent studies have proved that high-protein diets do not cause orthopedic problems in puppies. What will cause problems is overnutrition (too many calories, causing excess weight and rapid growth), and improper amounts of calcium (either too much or too little). Protein does not accelerate growth. Protein and carbohydrates contain exactly the same number of calories (4 per gram), so replacing protein with carbohydrates will not reduce calories or slow growth. In fact, the opposite is generally true, since carbohydrates supply calories with less nutrition, so the puppy has to eat more to get the nutrients he needs. Carbs are more likely to contribute to fat, while protein contributes to lean muscle as well. Most raw-fed puppies (where the protein amount is very high) are leaner and slower-growing than puppies fed kibble, which is high in carbohydrates." Mary Straus http://www.dogaware.com/k9nfaq.html "So, what is the answer to the question of when to reduce proteins? Practically never! On occasion, it may be necessary to reduce phosphorus in chronic renal failure, or change protein types in liver shunt issues and in food allergies. But lowering protein amounts in the dog’s diet removes much needed nutrients for organ health, skin and coat, immune system and the ability to thrive." Lew Olson http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/is-it...in-in-the-diet/ "The need for high quality protein is also applicable for puppies. Too little protein will do more harm than good, and there is no research to show that too much protein is damaging to a growing puppy." Lew Olson http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/protein/ "The article referenced below does not show protein as a problem, but rather states the importance of it in a dog’s diet. The need for a high quality protein is explored in puppies and throughout all stages of a dog’s life. While the article admits that not everything is known about protein and dogs, excess protein is not a problem given in amounts greater than recommended, as long as the quality of the protein is good." Lew Olson http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/puppy-protein/ I first "met" Lew on the CanineCancer list some years ago and regularly read her articles. She is not a vet but has a PhD in animal nutrition.She has been very helpful to me when I've asked questions on that list or emailed her privately. All of her articles show references to other studies. Although an experienced breeder she is not just talking from her own experience but to me seems to have evidence to back up her beliefs. She has some excellent articles on feeding puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan of Arc Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 4kelpies thank you so much for all that info and for your encouragment and support. As I said before ... for years many people have commented on how healthy and fit our dogs are and they show, trial and work as gundogs... they are not overweight and in fact the Lab pup in question is considered to be a bit lean.. so that destroys thier weight arguement. I think I will just keep doing what I have been doing for the next few days while I do some more investigations ... not sure about the calcium for the clumber though... what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I know from dane diets that it is not just the protein to fat ratios which are important but also the calcium to phosporous ratios. Both need to be kept in line to maintain slow and steady growth. For example the dietary matrix which research indicates best for danes is (maximum) 26% protein (high quality, animal-based source), 14% fat, 0.80% calcium, and 0.67% phosphorus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 A lot of people talk about protein in growth but I personally don't follow that. All the Vet Nutrition books I've read say that it's not the protein levels that cause the problems, but the calorie in take, as well as unbalanced calcium/phosphorus. I agree with everything 4Kelpies said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Kelpies Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I think I will just keep doing what I have been doing for the next few days while I do some more investigations ... not sure about the calcium for the clumber though... what do you think? I've never added calcium to my dogs' diet. I'm not a good enough scientist to work out calcium/ phosphorous ratios for myself so I trust the makers of quality dog foods to do that for me. Half of my dogs' diets are made up of meaty bones which have the correct ratio and a good proportion of their diet is dry food (in the past has been Eukanuba, Orijen, Eagle Pack and now Black Hawk.) I also feed yoghurt or cottage cheese and whole eggs several times a week. Again from Lew "The calcium balance is very important for puppies, as they need calcium to help with the development of bones and teeth. But equally important is not over supplementing with calcium. Never add calcium to a commercial dog food and do not feed more than the recommend amount of calcium (900 mg per pound of food served) in a homemade diet." http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/calci...your-dogs-diet/ She has several articles about calcium here http://www.b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=newsletters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I was told by Lew that if the diet was over 50 % dry food then there was a risk of upsetting the cal/phos balance by adding raw bones. Think I have the percentage right. This was a couple of years ago when I joined her list. I've followed Lew for a few years now but didn't get much feedback at all when I was asking my questions on her list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Kelpies Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I was told by Lew that if the diet was over 50 % dry food then there was a risk of upsetting the cal/phos balance by adding raw bones. Think I have the percentage right. This was a couple of years ago when I joined her list. I've followed Lew for a few years now but didn't get much feedback at all when I was asking my questions on her list. Hi Rebanne, I've been looking through Lew's newsletters and can't find anything like this. This was the closest :- "Mixing Kibble and Fresh Food Some people aren’t quite ready to go to home cooked or raw, but want to begin offering better quality foods with their commercial dog food. An easy start is to add fresh food to your dog’s commercial diet. Since dog food is already high in carbohydrates (for shelf life and inexpensive ingredients) I suggest only adding animal proteins and fat to commercial foods . You may feed up to 50% of the diet in fresh food without needing to add calcium. These foods can include meat (cooked or raw), eggs, plain yogurt or cottage and canned fish, such as mackerel, salmon or sardines. You may also feed raw meaty bones, but when starting, feed these separate in one meal, away from dry dog food. It is thought that these foods (raw bones and kibble) may compete for digestion in the gastric juices in the stomach. However, you can add any of the above foods in the first paragraph with kibble." http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/feedi...-december-2009/ Dry food would make up less than half of my dogs' diet so I don't think I need to worry. Most of my dealings with Lew have been through the CanineCancer list. I have been very impressed that someone who makes money through writing articles (and now a book ) and sells products and supplements was prepared to give so much advice and answer questions free of charge. Perhaps she is more involved with the cancer group. I know I asked a lot of questions when Ruff was first diagnosed and always got a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I was told by Lew that if the diet was over 50 % dry food then there was a risk of upsetting the cal/phos balance by adding raw bones. Think I have the percentage right. This was a couple of years ago when I joined her list. I've followed Lew for a few years now but didn't get much feedback at all when I was asking my questions on her list. Hi Rebanne, I've been looking through Lew's newsletters and can't find anything like this. This was the closest :- "Mixing Kibble and Fresh Food Some people aren’t quite ready to go to home cooked or raw, but want to begin offering better quality foods with their commercial dog food. An easy start is to add fresh food to your dog’s commercial diet. Since dog food is already high in carbohydrates (for shelf life and inexpensive ingredients) I suggest only adding animal proteins and fat to commercial foods . You may feed up to 50% of the diet in fresh food without needing to add calcium. These foods can include meat (cooked or raw), eggs, plain yogurt or cottage and canned fish, such as mackerel, salmon or sardines. You may also feed raw meaty bones, but when starting, feed these separate in one meal, away from dry dog food. It is thought that these foods (raw bones and kibble) may compete for digestion in the gastric juices in the stomach. However, you can add any of the above foods in the first paragraph with kibble." http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/feedi...-december-2009/ Dry food would make up less than half of my dogs' diet so I don't think I need to worry. Most of my dealings with Lew have been through the CanineCancer list. I have been very impressed that someone who makes money through writing articles (and now a book ) and sells products and supplements was prepared to give so much advice and answer questions free of charge. Perhaps she is more involved with the cancer group. I know I asked a lot of questions when Ruff was first diagnosed and always got a reply. it was on her email list/group not an actual newsletter in answer to a question I had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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