Boarding Kennels.

[Steve]

Right up front I have to say this is being instigated because we are dealing with a case that has me asking big big questions about how boarding kennels operate and what people expect as basic services when they place their dogs.

What is the norm and what do you want from a kennel when you leave your dogs there.

Personally I think its time we rattled the bucket a bit and took a really close look at what mandatory codes are in place and what needs to be addded to them in order to be sure that our animals are having basic duty of care and they are being looked after as we expect they will be.

Sure Ive heard stories before about dogs which come home which have fly bite or skin infections, wounds etc but Im ashamed to admit I havent really taken that much notice. Ive never used a boarding kennel and never would so Ive walked around oblivious to what can and does happen.

It never occured to me that someone would take $30 a day to look after a dog [ or cat] and not check it at least daily for injuries or illness past looking at it from a distance.

If for example I own a boarding kennel in an area known to have paralysis tick should the owner have an expectation that their dog will be handled and checked at least daily for ticks?

If they put a clause in to say if the animal dies from tick they are not liable does this mean I cant expect them to have some kind of management protocol to ensure my dog isnt running around with a tick and facing death, before it become unconscious and they happen to see it when they walk past the next day????

Do owners really place their animals in a kennel and understand that no one will check them up close and they run a high risk of the dog getting a tick and dropping dead or in a life threatening situation because the people the animal is left with dont see being vigilant for this as part of their duties ?

Then who checks to see these places are doing what they should be doing as far as cleaning routines and housing, how are they checked, by whom and how often ?

Is it something a pet owners takes in their stride if they leave their dog in a kennel for a couple of weeks and they come to pick it up and it has an infection caused by having to live on concrete sitting in its own urine?

Do I have unrealistic expectations of what should be a duty of care.Talk to me about what happens and what you expect to happen when you leave your dog in a boarding kennel?

One of the cases Pacers has at the moment has really tugged at my heart for the dogs and the owner and I really do think there are some major issues in the industry which need to be looked at and lobbied to change whats going on in some of them.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Steve

[TheFenstar]

Personally I have great concerns in the regulation (or lack thereof) of kennels.

I haven't used one myself, but a friend of my elderly Nan's recently put his dog in one.

Somehow his dog "escaped" whilst in their care, and was picked up by the council. He was given a fine from the council for his dog escaping and a fine from the pound for whatever they fine for.

At no stage did the kennels offer to reimburse him for these costs, despite it not being his fault. He was also not made aware of the fact that his dog was missing, he found this out when he came to pick up the dog. In the end I think they may have reimbursed him some costs, but it's something I have yet to speak to him about as I have been working night shift. He's an elderly pensioner and he could barely afford these fees.

I've also heard other stories of people sending their dogs to kennels and them coming back riddled with fleas and in pretty poor condition. Not something I would be happy with if I was paying someone to look after my animal/s.

[Steve]

its appalling isnt it?

Ive been reading through the stuff that people have to sign off on when they leave their animals and wonder if anyone actually reads some of it before they leave their mates in their care. With some of them it makes you wonder how they fit in with the new Australia wide contract laws because it look to me to be pretty stacked in their favour. The business practices and ethics with some astound me.

It seems though that its a roaring trade with some of them having over 300 hundred animals sometimes in their care and placements needing to be booked miles in advance with the most horrible conditions if you cant pay the full amount on time.

I feel terribly sorry for those who have to find somewhere for their animals to stay and have few choices but also for those who leave them at some high profile kennels and are hoodwinked by publicity into assuming they are a good place to leave their dogs and cats.

We have some legal people looking at some of these contracts and studying the legislation and mandatory codes but honestly I think its time we bought this out in the open and began working toward doing something to sort it out including banging some pretty big drums.

[DobieMum]

If your going to look at this (and I honestly agree with you, there are some really shonky kennels out there, but there are a lot that do the right thing) can you also look at the other side of the coin, for kennels that are chased out of business, when they are doing the right thing, by the public. I'm speaking from experience here, but I'm talking about a time at least 10 years ago. We used to live in industrial area, we used to have 2 car wrecking yards around us and a trucking company, plus a big horse sports area, plus cattle paddocks for the meatworks, we owned boarding kennels and there was another one up the road.

First the public pressure got the meatworks to downsize, because they down sizedsome of the paddocks were sold off to developers. Then the houses started being built. The trucking company was the first to bow out to public pressure, it was to dusty and smelly.

All dogs in kennels, will make a racket, when someone pulls up, because they think it might be their owner, they get excited, they bark. Our kennels were only open certain hours and we tried to keep the dogs quiet otherwise. We had a 6 foot fibro fence around the property and we cleaned up all the dog poo and took it to the dump once a week, and the kennels were cleaned with detergent and bleach daily and the dogs were bathed and dipped for fleas and ticks once a week.

But no that was not good enough, we ended up having the council visiting us through noise complaints, we were going to have to put a 7 foot brick fencing in (to keep the noise in - ahuh) and then going to have to put a septic system in to catch everything. We couldn't afford it, so both us and the kennels down the road closed down.

How is it allowed, that an area that has been deemed industrial and have industies in it, be chased out, because Joe Public doesn't want the noise? Surely there's got to be some madatory codes about this sort of thing too.

[spanky]

I don't use them. I've heard stories about people leaving their dogs with food and having most of the food given back when they pick the dog up... that wouldn't work for me as Griffin is on k/d and I wouldn't risk him not being fed correctly. Griffin is also DA so I won't risk them putting him in a group play even if I'd said no.

My last dog was kenneled once and she returned home fine.

The industry is probably much like dog breeders... broad spectrum from places that go beyond what is required to the places that do the absolute minimum or less.

[Crisovar]

placements needing to be booked miles in advance with the most horrible conditions if you cant pay the full amount on time.

Could you please explain why these two points are an issue please?

[Steve]

placements needing to be booked miles in advance with the most horrible conditions if you cant pay the full amount on time.

Could you please explain why these two points are an issue please?

Obviously because the demand is high for placements - so owners are at risk of over looking some of the things they would take into account if they had greater choices.

When they find an opening they take it because its an opening not necessarily because its what they would like.

Im not sure people who are signing off on contracts know that the costs they think they will incur when they leave their dogs in kennels can skyrocket with a whole bunch of extras so when they come to pick them up its a huge unexpected expense and if they dont pay in full that it can even lead to the dogs being put to sleep.

It may be that people running a kennel are in business and have the right to collect fair payment but surely there are better management methods than holding someone's family pet indefinitely incurring more and more costs if they dont have enough to pay the whole account at pick up.

Why not take a bond at drop off for example - if someone doesnt have the money they then cant leave the dog rather than have them get to the end and their animals be held to ransom.

Im not letting people off the hook who sign these contracts altogether either but if you sign into a motel and then at the end of your stay you dont have the money to pay they dont make you stay indefinitely incurring more costs before they let you leave. If you dont pay up in 14 days they dont take you to be put down.

Surely there has to be other ways of getting their money in the case where someone is unable to pay on the day.

[Crisovar]

I have never experienced a Boarding Kennel that adds extras unknown to the client at time of drop off so this is new to me, in normal circumstances you book in for x days at a rate of $y. It is not hard to work out what your bill will be at the end.

The Kennels I know that offer extras clearly state the costs of these.

I have seen many animals abandoned at kennels and the kennels left to sort out that mess, hence clauses regarding this circumstance.

Many people fail to plan and are left floundering when looking for boarding facilities, and I am not talking emergency boarding, people who neglect to book when they have holidays planned way in advance and those who simply expect to find a space on the day abound. It pays to plan and read the fine print.

Of course there are grubs out there, but there are just as many owners in that basket not just service providers.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

if people don't like what's happened at a boarding kennel, who can they complain to apart from the kennel owners assuming the issues aren't enough to call in the rspca?

Edited February 25, 2011 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Steve]

I have never experienced a Boarding Kennel that adds extras unknown to the client at time of drop off so this is new to me, in normal circumstances you book in for x days at a rate of $y. It is not hard to work out what your bill will be at the end.

The Kennels I know that offer extras clearly state the costs of these.

I have seen many animals abandoned at kennels and the kennels left to sort out that mess, hence clauses regarding this circumstance.

Many people fail to plan and are left floundering when looking for boarding facilities, and I am not talking emergency boarding, people who neglect to book when they have holidays planned way in advance and those who simply expect to find a space on the day abound. It pays to plan and read the fine print.

Of course there are grubs out there, but there are just as many owners in that basket not just service providers.

Yes to all of the above but the case Im looking at has had to pay thousands of dollars for vetting caused by an injury to one dog's hip whilst it was in boarding and the other which was found unconscious due to tick paralysis whilst in boarding. You can hardly expect the owner should anticpate this extra expense to get them out of care when she returned to pick them up.How many extra thousands of dollars should an owner budget for to be safe and be able to take their dogs home while they pay off the balance? It may be good business but it sure as hell isnt in the best interests of the dogs.

[goldchow]

There is little to no regulations in the running of or care of dogs in Boarding Kennels, at least in Queensland. The flashiest & high priced boarding kennel does not necessarily provide the best care for their clients.

We purchased this small kennel 15 years ago which was our first sojourn into the world of boarding kennels, mainly because we had our own purebred show & breeding dogs which the council license also covered. We visited and spoke to many boarding kennels before deciding to go ahead and to be honest I was pretty horrified at the attitude and obvious lack of concern.

It became obvious that any Joe Blow could set up/purchase a boarding kennel with little to no knowledge in the care, feeding or hygeine required for the keeping dogs at all let alone in a confined area.

There are the good ones of course, usually run by dog people who do know what they are doing but this is definitely an area that needs looking into with animal mangement qualifications as a requirements as essential.

[Crisovar]

What did the boarding agreements state in relation to Vet fees?

Did the dog have a pre existing hip issue?

Usually the owners or their emergency contact would be called and the Health issue discussed and the owner would be aware that the dog was needing Vet Treatment, normally at the Clients regular Vet if boarded locally, otherwise as agreed to.

Vets require Owners or agents consent so they cannot just willy nilly run up a huge bill unknown to the owner the owner or agent would have to agree to treatment. I have a standing agreement with my Vet re my animals treatment in my absence, always handy.

This sounds like a communication issue, too little information to know.

The tick issue would have to be thoroughly investigated, could the dog have had ticks on arrival, did the kennel insist upon all dogs being on prevention if they are in a tick area, how long was the dog in their care??

Read the agreements, ask around in advance when looking at boarding find out which ones are highly regarded and plan ahead.

[Steve]

What did the boarding agreements state in relation to Vet fees?

Did the dog have a pre existing hip issue?

Usually the owners or their emergency contact would be called and the Health issue discussed and the owner would be aware that the dog was needing Vet Treatment, normally at the Clients regular Vet if boarded locally, otherwise as agreed to.

Vets require Owners or agents consent so they cannot just willy nilly run up a huge bill unknown to the owner the owner or agent would have to agree to treatment. I have a standing agreement with my Vet re my animals treatment in my absence, always handy.

This sounds like a communication issue, too little information to know.

The tick issue would have to be thoroughly investigated, could the dog have had ticks on arrival, did the kennel insist upon all dogs being on prevention if they are in a tick area, how long was the dog in their care??

Read the agreements, ask around in advance when looking at boarding find out which ones are highly regarded and plan ahead.

“The owner agrees to pay all costs and charges for special services and all veterinary costs for the pet during the time the pet is in care.”

The dog did not have a pre existing hip condition – there is no disagreement about how the animal was injured which was during a swap over of pens by an attendant.

The boarding kennel is the agent and has the bill made up in their name with balance falling due by the owner on pick up.

The dog was in their care for approx 3 months and did not have ticks at time of arrival.

The dogs were not boarded locally to the owners usual vet and the kennel's vet is used for all emergency and vet services.

[Crisovar]

What did the boarding agreements state in relation to Vet fees?

Did the dog have a pre existing hip issue?

Usually the owners or their emergency contact would be called and the Health issue discussed and the owner would be aware that the dog was needing Vet Treatment, normally at the Clients regular Vet if boarded locally, otherwise as agreed to.

Vets require Owners or agents consent so they cannot just willy nilly run up a huge bill unknown to the owner the owner or agent would have to agree to treatment. I have a standing agreement with my Vet re my animals treatment in my absence, always handy.

This sounds like a communication issue, too little information to know.

The tick issue would have to be thoroughly investigated, could the dog have had ticks on arrival, did the kennel insist upon all dogs being on prevention if they are in a tick area, how long was the dog in their care??

Read the agreements, ask around in advance when looking at boarding find out which ones are highly regarded and plan ahead.

“The owner agrees to pay all costs and charges for special services and all veterinary costs for the pet during the time the pet is in care.”

The dog did not have a pre existing hip condition – there is no disagreement about how the animal was injured which was during a swap over of pens by an attendant.

The boarding kennel is the agent and has the bill made up in their name with balance falling due by the owner on pick up.

The dog was in their care for approx 3 months and did not have ticks at time of arrival.

The dogs were not boarded locally to the owners usual vet and the kennel's vet is used for all emergency and vet services.

Are you saying that the owners had no idea that their dog had required Vet attention until their return?

Sloppy contract I would not have signed it. You don't simply allow someone else to make the choice of Vet and treatment as a standard thing. Even Boarding Kennels that have a Vet on call allow owners to stipulate their Vet is to be used and/or that they are contacted and kept fully informed.

The owner should have been in contact with Vet and been fully informed and made the treatment choices, and therefore fully aware of the expense. It is rare that you are unable to contact owners in this day and age.

The owner should have had a emergency contact other than themselves in the event that they are out of reach, all these things should be fully covered especially when leaving animals long term.

All medications and preventions etc, grooming and routine healthcare should be fully covered in the agreement.

I would not sign anything that left a kennel owner the ability to run up a bill or choose treatment options aside from standard emergency treatment, pain relief etc.

Big danger signs here and owners need to be better informed.

[Steve]

I wouldnt have signed it either - I wouldnt havent left them there but it was a desperate situation and obviously lots and lots and lots of people do.

Sometimes people cant be contacted in time to save a dog's life and the special circumstances in this case would have prevented that anyway.

Should dogs in boarding kennels have hands on them everyday to check them for ticks if they are in a high tick risk area?

Do peopel dropping of their pets into a kennel in a high risk tick area understand that they will not be handled every day to check they havent picked up a tick?

[sandgrubber]

I'm happy not to be in the boarding kennel business any more. It's a huge amount of work and lots of responsibility for not much income.

I don't like the idea of government meddling in kennel standards any more than I like the idea of government meddling in breeding standards. It may be a good idea . . . but it seem likely that rules will be framed badly.

When I was in the business I found the guidance toward 'cover your backside' contracts came from the Companion Animal Boarding Association . . . which handed out a 'generic' lawyer-developed boarding contract that relieved owners of responsibility for illness, loss or accident and gave them power to dispose of animals at will if the owners were absent for more than 2 weeks after their supposed pickup date. This was around the time of the Tsunami disaster and we had quite a few clients in Bali . . . I dropped the contract around that time and went without contract. But that is risky.

Steve mentioned checking daily. We got in trouble with that one once. We watched our dogs pretty carefully, and we were good about picking up behavour changes, limping, etc. but we didn't do a daily feel-down. How closely we monitored was determined, in part, by the dogs. A few wouldn't allow a 'strange' person to touch their front/flanks/rear unless they were restrained . . . checking for ticks on such dogs would have been a nightmare (fortunately we didn't have paralysis ticks in our area). Ok, if they were in for several weeks, they learn the routine, and most get so that they tolerate 'feeling'. But a lot of dogs are in for a week or less and unless you're a dog whisperer, some of them are difficult to deal with.

The dog we got in trouble about was a one year old male Weim who wouldn't tolerate touching. He was in with his dam and a male sibling. We let the three play together. They loved running but were mouthy about their play. One boy got a tooth into the other boy and ended out with a pretty good puncture wound, which was little visible. We might have caught it if it weren't Xmas, but it was Xmas, and everyone was overworked. So the wound got infected and the vet bill got expensive . . . we paid out (or reduced the bill, can't remember exactly). The client never came back. I still feel bad about it. But shite happens. We were charging ~$14.50/day for the dog . . . great price competition in our area . . . and economics wouldn't support hiring enough staff/staff with adequate skills to do a systematic check of every dog every day, especially not at Xmas.

There are also problems, such as bloat, that just happen, and are hard to guard against in a boarding kennel setting. And if you are rural in that sort of area, snake bite may be a possibility.

In the ~5 years I had the kennel we had two or three incidents where an individual dog got a serious tick infestation. I don't know where this came from. Bandicoots? A dog that came in with first instar ticks and they became highly visible at the time it went home? A dog who was a tick-magnet? No idea why one dog would get hit while the other 20 in the yards seemed to be fine. If the government gets involved in such things, we'll all be spraying on a regular basis with highly carcinogenic chemicals to kill ticks.

Though laissez faire has some bad outcomes . . . I think it may be better to let the bad kennels get kicked around by lawsuits and people badmouthing them than to try to legislate standards of care.

Edited February 26, 2011 by sandgrubber

[animalia]

I have worked and managed a few Victorian boarding kennels and treated all animals under my care like they were my own, however I would never leave my dog at a kennel as I know what happens behind the scenes. After years of working for kennel owners that put the all mighty dollar before the dog/cats welfare I chose to leave the industry. The worst owner I worked for (not for long) beat many dogs and happily smiled to the owners as he handed back the dogs, that was the last straw, I left the industry.

There are many things wrong with kennel industry-

-Crap kennel workers with no work ethic, a lack of compassion and responsibility whilst working with the animals

- Greedy bosses who would rather cram 120 dogs into a facility when the kennel is only permitted AND can only physically take 80 dogs

-Kennel owners under staffing

-Abusive workers/kennel owners that treat the animals like s**t, and have no issue physically hurting them

-a lack of responsibility when things go wrong due to negligence of the kennel worker/kennel owner

-crap facilities that are unsafe and or unhygienic to house animals, but the kennel owner has no plans on fixing them

-councils that CALL before they inspect a kennel and let them know the date and time they will be there

-The DPI for not inspecting enough kennels unannounced

As a past kennel manager of many years I understand that things can go wrong even when you have done everything possible to ensure that the animals in your care will be safe, e.g a dogs toe nail might get ripped off whilst it's playing or digging, therefore he will need vet attention which the owner has to pay for. In the 10 years of working and managing kennels in Victoria I have NEVER once had dogs that I have put together fightl, lost any dogs/cats or caused illness or death, why because as I said I treated them like I would want my animals to be treated, I was tough (but fair) to my crew to ensure they did the right thing and if they didn't I got rid of them, always had "RISK MANAGEMENT" in the back of my mind while making decisions, set the bench mark high all round and I genuinely loved the dogs and cats in my care. But after years of working 120 hours in consecutive working days during peak periods, dealing with crap staff and kennel owners, I burnt out and left the industry.

P.s I do want to say that not all the staff members I worked with were bad, there were 3 other kennel workers that I worked with from various kennels that were just like me and gave a s**t

Edited February 26, 2011 by animalia

[goldchow]

Excellent post Sandgrubber, you've said it all.

I too would not like to see this industry regulated by bureaucrates, the environmental rules & regulations and the cost of setting up a boarding kennel now is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and much of those Buidling regulations alone does nothing for the dogs care & welfare so heaven help us if they decide to take over the actual running & Care of the kennels.

The disclaimer for the kennel in question has more holes than a seive, sadly many pet owners either don't read or understand how important that Disclaimer is until something goes wrong. All kennels should have the owners mobile No and a back up emergency no.

The owner should have been notifyed of the injury to the dog and the owner should have had input as to what the next step should be and which vet the dog needed to be taken to.

What Sandgrubber says is quite right and its impossible to be able to check over the dogs daily for ticks, time wise and many won't allow that sort of close handling.

We don't have paralysis tick in this area although those affected areas are growing so we're always wary, and brown dog tick is another concern. Being on tank water we ask the owners to have their dogs bathed with Frontline or similar applied before coming in and we keep a close eye on them. We had one dog arrive from the Gold Coast showing symptoms of Paralysis tick as soon as he got out of the care. He went straight into the hydrobath with the flea & tick rinse and his owner and I worked on him until the offending parasite was found.

Being rural here snakes are another hazard. Most of our customers are country people who are aware of these dangers and realize that even though all care is taken, and the dogs are all checked frequently throughout the day, things can go wrong.

If these dogs were in these kennels for three months one would think the kennels would have at least had them on some sort of tick preventative, supplied by the owner or hydo'd weekly in a wash at least which many kennels do just to 'Keep the dogs fresh"

Some pet owners don't think of these things and the kennel owner needs to advise and assist these people to provide the best care possible for their dog, not just while they are in the kennels but when they go home.

Edited February 26, 2011 by goldchow

[Crisovar]

Unfortunately the Boarding industry can attract operators who are in it for a fast easy buck, running a kennel properly is far from an easy job, but you will always have those for enter the game and will cut corners to make fast money. They are however in the minority in my experience.

It is next to impossible in peak time for most kennels to be able to thoroughly search every dog for ticks, if you are expecting this you need to try and find a small, very small boutique type kennel. Owners with coated breeds particularly fail themselves in lots of cases themselves to do adequate checks so expecting a boarding facility to do so is unrealistic. For the majority of kennels they are relying upon prevention (and prevention procedure varies from kennel to kennel) and observation of animals, all kennels should have staff that are capable noticing signs and simply observing the dogs and noting behaviors or symptoms whilst they go about their normal tasks in paralysis tick area this is one added extra thing for them to be aware of.

It has already been mentioned that it can be impossible to actually get your hands on some dogs in care. I have seen some shockers, and also owners need to be aware that how their dog behaves at home and in familiar surroundings can be a far cry from how it acts in boarding situation.

There are always going to be stuff ups accidents and incidents, especially in an industry working with animals, it is inevitable.

It is how a kennel handles these things and what the owners expectations are that is important.

Owners can help things run smoothly by investigating before hand and seeking out kennels with excellent reputations, understanding that their expectations and a boarding kennels ability to meet these expectations may be worlds apart.

Planning ahead for emergencies, having an emergency contact that is authorised to make decisions and can communicate your wishes to your vet and kennel. Having a standing agreement with your Vet for treating your animals in your absence.

Particularly when boarding long term there needs to be an exchange of information regarding parasite prevention programs, administering of medications, diet requirements, health issues, behavioural issues etc.

You need to read and fully understand any agreement/contract you sign.

Ask questions if the contract seems off or too open, and get amendments signed.

If you require special services ask in advance about the costs.

Obviously sometimes an emergency can arise and you have to board without notice but generally plan ahead and don't be left having to board in an unknown facility or having to accept sub standard because you have not prepared.

Good kennels will be booked out well ahead of peak times. Don't go looking for a kennel now for Easter and expect to find a dozen good ones waiting for you.

[Erny]

I wouldnt have signed it either - I wouldnt havent left them there but it was a desperate situation and obviously lots and lots and lots of people do.

Sometimes people cant be contacted in time to save a dog's life and the special circumstances in this case would have prevented that anyway.

Should dogs in boarding kennels have hands on them everyday to check them for ticks if they are in a high tick risk area?

Do people dropping of their pets into a kennel in a high risk tick area understand that they will not be handled every day to check they havent picked up a tick?

Should a kennel be held responsible for the off chance of not picking up on a tick, even if they have checked them by hand daily? I've not had to experience tick attack, living as I do in Victoria (although with our unseasonable humidity I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually become more prolific down here), but I have read of occasional cases where even vigilant owners have missed a tick on their dog.

Should a kennel be held responsible for an injury that is accidental? Dogs are animals. They are going to play, bounce around. Assuming a kennel has demonstrated reasonable care and not been overtly negligent or stupid, should they be responsible for how different people's dogs behave that might cause such an injury? And if they are to be responsible, should they be entitled to request a Vet health clearance before every kennel stay so they can't be held responsible for existing injuries that might not be evident at the time of boarding?

If the owner was home and an event occurred, how would they have afforded the Vet bills then? Am I being too harsh to think that if someone is so tight as to not to be able to afford at least some Vet bills, what are they doing going away on holiday? (Admittedly, there can be less fortunate reasons to board a dog.) Why should a kennel owner be the one who should shoulder the burden of the dog-owners' Vet bills until the owner can afford to pay? After all, they aren't banks. I think there may be many kennels who would show compassion for extreme circumstances and potentially help people out, but I don't think it should be written in stone that this becomes the kennel's obligation.

I think that sometimes we need to accept that the written word cannot cover everything and lead to a perfect outcome for everyone. It's not to say that I condone kennels who are neglectful and don't exhibit care to duty, but to bind all kennels up with responsibilities that could lend themselves to the impossibly ridiculous would be unfair and not helpful to the industry itself. Yes, kennels book up far in advance for the popular holiday times like Christmas, Easter, long weekends etc. But making the industry shoulder responsibilities that might be excessively onerous won't make this better, it is more possible that it will make it worse.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. Laws and more laws become suffocating and not necessarily advantageous to the majority.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Erny