koalathebear Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) This photo of a Japanese search and rescue worker and his dog in Christchurch got me thinking. I know that certain breeds are typically used for search and rescue/sniffer detection duties because they're predisposed to be better at it. German or Belgian shepherds, Border Collies, Golden or Labrador retrievers for search and rescue. The Stanley Coren book "Why We Love the Dogs We Do" mentioned somewhere that actually any dog (including a poodle) could be used for detection work but some of the handlers didn't quite feel like it was in keeping with the image etc. Some dogs might not be suitable for certain types of work because of physicality (too big/not agile enough/too delicate) etc but e.g. Kelpies are bred to be herding dogs and while some DO do search and rescue, there aren't that many and they're not really the "go to" breed for that sort of work. Is there any reason why dogs like Kelpies wouldn't be appropriate for SAR work or detection work? What about other breeds like Australian Shepherds, cattle dogs etc - medium-sized and agile and used to working with people. Edited February 25, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) I know the Australian Army has looked at rescue ACDs and taken some on for bomb detection. I'm pretty sure Australia Post has a range of working breeds and mixes (from pounds mostly) working in their mail centres. Labradors and working English Springer Spaniels are popular for scent detection work with a lot of police forces. AQIS has gone with Beagles. Kelpies are not a common breed outside Oz. That may be one part of the issue but the professional dog folk tend to go where they know results have been had before. I doubt its any reflection on the capacity of the dogs to do the work. Most dogs in work with professionals are bred for the job. They come from lines developed for the work to improve the potential of pups to successfully complete training. I'd say few scent detection dogs are sourced from the wider general public these days outside of Oz Post and the Army. Others may know more. Edited February 25, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Kelpies are not a common breed outside Oz. That may be one part of the issue but the professional dog folk tend to go where they know results have been had before. I doubt its any reflection on the capacity of the dogs to do the work. I found the issue interesting because some breeds are bred for a certain purpose but then later it could turn out that they can multi-task and be good at various things – presumably this is a good thing. Some of the purists might not like it – for instance, some of the Kelpie breeders don't like that working Kelpies are being used for agility because they think that it can diminish the 'true purpose' of the breed. If dogs like Kelpies started being used for their nose and searching abilities rather than herding, would that be a bad thing for the breed? I take your point about many of the professional dogs being bred for the purpose from specific lines, so that is in large part why we see the same breeds in certain 'professions'. Edited to fix typos Edited February 25, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) I know one of the dogs at ground zero in New York was a Portuguese Water Dog which is hardly a ''traditional'' working dog in this field. A number of SAR dogs in the USA are rescued pit bulls - and some drug detection dogs too (particularly border control rather than the ones going into people's houses) A friend took a Stafford out with the SAR on one of their training days and he was brilliant, it's HER who's not built for agility or speed You can buy a Belgian or GSD from lines proven to produce good SAR dogs, good drug dogs, good protection dogs. These dogs have a much higher chance of being genetically better at these jobs; than any random dog from a non-traditional breed, they haven't been bred for the particular traits required. People dedicated to SAR want a SAR dog (they may well have other pets too obviously!) and don't have the time to take the chance that one dog will not turn out - you could spend several years training only to have the dog fail at the last hurdle so why not lessen the odds by starting with the best available ''raw material''? With a lot of the volunteer SAR people you would have to think that some of them may have got in to the dog side of it because they had a suitable dog (whatever the breed) but with some of the more professional outfits it would be more likely they get a dog to suit the job rather than a job to suit the dog. Edited February 25, 2011 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I know one of the dogs at ground zero in New York was a Portuguese Water Dog which is hardly a ''traditional'' working dog in this field. A number of SAR dogs in the USA are rescued pit bulls - and some drug detection dogs too (particularly border control rather than the ones going into people's houses)A friend took a Stafford out with the SAR on one of their training days and he was brilliant, it's HER who's not built for agility or speed You can buy a Belgian or GSD from lines proven to produce good SAR dogs, good drug dogs, good protection dogs. These dogs have a much higher chance of being genetically better at these jobs; than a any random dog from a non-traditional breed, they haven't been bred for the particular traits required. People dedicated to SAR want a SAR dog (they may well have other pets too obviously!) and don't have the time to take the chance that one dog will not turn out - you could spend several years training only to have the dog fail at the last hurdle so why not lessen the odds by starting with the best available ''raw material''? With a lot of the volunteer SAR people you would have to think that some of them may have got in to the dog side of it because they had a suitable dog (whatever the breed) but with some of the more professional outfits it would be more likely they get a dog to suit the job rather than a job to suit the dog. Many of the 9/11 rescue dogs were owned by members of the public who do volunteer SAR work.. kind of like being called in as SES. Pity there's not more of that here. It would probably speed up finding a lot of lost folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Many of the 9/11 rescue dogs were owned by members of the public who do volunteer SAR work.. kind of like being called in as SES. Pity there's not more of that here. It would probably speed up finding a lot of lost folk. That's interesting. I had been pondering at one point how one gets into scent detection training as a 'hobby'. Elbie's got a terrible nose but Hoover's nose is freakishly good so part of me was wondering if it would be possible to develop him further and train him in the area. I'm sure he'd find it fun even if he was never going to be good enough to do 'work'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Many of the 9/11 rescue dogs were owned by members of the public who do volunteer SAR work.. kind of like being called in as SES. Pity there's not more of that here. It would probably speed up finding a lot of lost folk. That's interesting. I had been pondering at one point how one gets into scent detection training as a 'hobby'. Elbie's got a terrible nose but Hoover's nose is freakishly good so part of me was wondering if it would be possible to develop him further and train him in the area. I'm sure he'd find it fun even if he was never going to be good enough to do 'work'. You could try tracking as a sport. There are a few folk who do it locally but the only club I"m aware of is in Sydney. Other than that, the only scent work I'm aware dogs perform is in the higher levels of obedience or 'finding' stuff like truffles. Steve Austin does quite a bit of scent training for dogs to work 'professionally'. Edited February 25, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Many of the 9/11 rescue dogs were owned by members of the public who do volunteer SAR work.. kind of like being called in as SES. Pity there's not more of that here. It would probably speed up finding a lot of lost folk. This particular dog is owned by a volunteer but she is virtually a full-time volunteer and could be considered an unpaid full time SAR personl she goes to so many places Koalathebear, try contacting your local SES and see if there is a dog handler you can link up with and chat to. The Stafford I mentioned went to a training day, everyone was a volunteer and they came from all over the place but met quite regularly and were happy for others to come along and give it a try with their dogs Edited February 25, 2011 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I did a scent detection course with NDTF - they also now include a module of it in their Cert III course. If you want to find out more about it, Steve Austin was happy to have me go and watch him train some dogs (after I'd met him through the course) and K9Pro held an SAR seminar with SARDA which I attended which was amazing! We took turns being the 'lost' person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) sandra777: thanks! Will definitely explore the issue further. As for the original topic, I love seeing dogs at work. At the airport, I love seeing the police dogs with their handlers and the quarantine beagles and on television, it's so amazing watching the search and rescue dogs at work. They look just as conscientious and committed to the task at hand as their handlers - although I have read that that dogs also get 'upset/depressed' if they don't find people alive .. I forget which episode of "Extraordinary Dogs" it was, but the rescuers were saying that a dog could sweep/clear a zone much, much faster than humans could and this was in an urban setting and also in a wilderness setting. I also found the distinction between tracking dogs and air scent dogs fascinating. Made me look at my own dogs and wonder how overwhelmingly we must smell to them given how sensitive their sense of smell is ... Edited February 25, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Many of the 9/11 rescue dogs were owned by members of the public who do volunteer SAR work.. kind of like being called in as SES. Pity there's not more of that here. It would probably speed up finding a lot of lost folk. There is in WA. The SES there have had very active SES SAR dogs teams. Not really focussed on collapsed building searches but a lot of missing person work. Dogs used back when I knew about it were German Shepherds, Belgian Shepherds and Weimeraners, but I am sure other breeds will have been utilised as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I really wanted to get my youngest into SAR but with the level of training involved that I just don't have the time to commit to it and still work full time and do my other volunteer work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Isn't StarAnais involved in SAR with her Malinois? I'm sure she can provide some good insights if she pops in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Some dogs might not be suitable for certain types of work because of physicality (too big/not agile enough/too delicate) etc but e.g. Kelpies are bred to be herding dogs and while some DO do search and rescue, there aren't that many and they're not really the "go to" breed for that sort of work. Is there any reason why dogs like Kelpies wouldn't be appropriate for SAR work or detection work? What about other breeds like Australian Shepherds, cattle dogs etc - medium-sized and agile and used to working with people. No reason at all why they couldn't be. One of the best SARdogs I know is a spaniel x labrador. I have also seen GSD, border collies, GSP, labradors, blue heelers working well in SAR roles. And of course, many many crossbreeds too. Within certain limits (size, etc), it's got a lot more to do with the individual dog than the breed. A SARdog needs good nerves, physical fitness, but most of all insane toy drive and a very committed owner. Depends on the venue too, of course. The Chihuahuas being used in USAR would not be at all suitable in a wilderness tracking/trailing role, they would be physically incapable of following scent for miles in very rough country, but seem to be great in their own particular niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I have pm'd you about a local trainer that has vast experience in detection work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Can I take this slightly OT for a sec? Did anyone see the Pit x Ridgie on Cesar last week? The foster dog with huge drive that was given to a SAR dog training company [i think]. Apart from the human aggression he was exactly like Chopper. It made me wonder two things: 1. Is 5.5yo too late to start SAR training? 2. Do you give your dog away if you think they have potential [like Cesar did] or do you train it and it lives with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I think Starainis' (sp, sorry) dog lives with her - she is her pet. But that is in NZ. I want someone to post pics of a SAR chi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 1. Is 5.5yo too late to start SAR training?2. Do you give your dog away if you think they have potential [like Cesar did] or do you train it and it lives with you? I can't speak for all groups but here, yes, 5.5 is too old. It will take you at least 18 months to get the dog trained to operational status (probably longer for a novice handler), and they usually retire by about 10 years old. So no one will want to invest that much time & money into training a dog which will have an operational lifespan of only a few years. Civilian search dogs where I come from live with and belong to their handlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 1. Is 5.5yo too late to start SAR training?2. Do you give your dog away if you think they have potential [like Cesar did] or do you train it and it lives with you? I can't speak for all groups but here, yes, 5.5 is too old. It will take you at least 18 months to get the dog trained to operational status (probably longer for a novice handler), and they usually retire by about 10 years old. So no one will want to invest that much time & money into training a dog which will have an operational lifespan of only a few years. Civilian search dogs where I come from live with and belong to their handlers. Thanks for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Oh, Megan, I was told they have a chihuahua in Chch at the moment with the Japanese rescue team, I'm assuming it's this one: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20101120a6.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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