Teaching A Dog To Chase A Toy?

[Kavik]

Incidentally, Kavik, maybe we should do a little experiment? We could try sneaking tug toys in with toys that get thrown at a ratio of, say, 20% tugs and 80% throw toys and see if we can get our dogs to come to view tug toys and throw toys as the same sort of reward. Or do we not want that?

I would love it if Kaos saw tugs as rewarding as his thrown toy! However, I am pretty sure that if I throw his favourite toy and then try to throw the tug, that he won't even look at the tug because he just wants the other toy He will play with the tug if it is the only toy I have and we are in the yard (not the park or anywhere else) and play enthusiasticaly - I can get him to do tricks or obedience commands for the tug well too. I really didn't do a good enough job generalising his tug to other environments though Oh well, something to do better with the next dog! While I would love it if he would tug, it is not the end of the world.

Placing his thrown toy in a bait bag and having that at the end of the course seems to work well, even if it is not as efficient at a trial for rewarding (he gets a treat right away, then we go and find a quiet space where I can throw his toy instead of being able to tug right away). He runs fast and happy and will send ahead to his bait bag at the end of a run whcih is the important bit.

[Vickie]

if the reward is the handler interaction with the toy, what is the difference between the toy being on the ground, as in the video you posted, or thrown so that it lands in front if the dog as it is reachng the same point?

In both instances, the reward is happening when the dog returns the toy to handler, yes?

Vickie do you mean the handler stands at say the start of a row of jumps and throws the toy? Where is the handler standing when they throw it say at a straight row of 3 jumps?

I would never really be stationary when I throw the toy, since I will never be stationary on course.

There are a number of situations I might thow a toy:

on a straight line with me moving behind, to reward for moving ahead when asked

as above with me moving laterally away while asking for & supporting the forward line

anywhere on course that my dogs reads a cue so nicely that I want to reward it

basically anywhere I want to reward the dog for moving towards me I would tug, anywhere I want to reward the dog for moving away I would throw a toy

I also used thrown toys as a distraction. They are only to get the toy on a "yes get it" command. So if I throw a toy in the middle of weave poles, I expect completion before they are allowed to get the toy.

[Vickie]

I am unlikely to change what I do with regards to throwing a toy b/c it works for me, and it works for lots of people I respect enormously.

I only started this b/c I am curious as to how you would achieve the same results without throwing it Nek

[JulesP]

The agility toy throw is not the same as the prey drive training were the object doesn't leave the handler's hand. The agility toy throw works very well with dogs that loveeeee toys. The send away is different again.

Corvus is Erik a foodie dog? If he is try sticking a chicken wing/neck in a sock, letting him have a chomp and then chuck that a little distance. Clean Run sell mesh tugs for the purpose.

[Leema]

I haven't read the whole thread, but why don't you clicker train a retrieve for the tug toy? Many dogs will learn to find this rewarding in itself, once they get the hang of it.

[The Spotted Devil]

Nor in the retrieving world - chasing a 'toy' (ie dummy) comprises the vast majority of training. Delivering to hand is rewarded by throwing another retrieve item. I'm confused with you

retrieval is a different kettle of fish. You want the dog to focus on the bird/toy as the prey item so they can find and retrieve it at speed and dont lose the bird. Hence why many hunters use live birds during training, to engage the dog to focus and actively seek the item wherever it is.

Retrieving (trialling) is more about a dog bring able to mark (memory) and take straight lines as there are often several birds that must be picked up in order. What you describe sounds a little more like field trials but that's not my thing. We definitely use dead birds too. But that's beside the point.

Vickie described it better than I could but for me, who trains/competes in agility, obedience and retrieving, my point is that a reward is a reward is a reward. The retrieving dog in training is taught that looking forward (and straight) earns the reward. No I wouldn't throw a toy to teach the sendaway in obedience because it's a completely different exercise but I do use it in agility. My dog beat me to the finish line by several jumps last night with that 'go forward' training (I use a food pouch not a toy). In agility we spend a lot of time teaching our dogs to read body language - shoulders, decel, etc. so you need something that makes them disregard body language (ie we can't keep up) take the cue and run like hell. Had I thought to use that cue in Open Jumping last night it might have helped us nail a tough distance challenge - straight out of the tunnel, handler forced to decel due to the 'line' and a lot of dogs read the handler perfectly and pulled off the jump. I've also found that tossing a food bag or large biscuit coming out of the weavers has given Zig so much forward momentum and a surprising amount of independence, confidence and concentration, allowing me to get in position more quickly. When pup starts agility I'll use a lot of toy throwing as I don't want to encourage too much tugging at a young age - although I do think dogs do context very well, I'll wait until her retrieving skills are more solid.

[corvus]

Just wanted to bump this and thank everyone for their help. Erik is doing super well learning to chase new objects. I ended up just using a toy on a ribbon he likes and shaping him to run to the toy he didn't want for a go with the toy he did want. I'm now moving towards shaping him to pick up the toy he didn't want. He prefers whatever toy I have in my hand, but using several toys at once seems to be helping with building his interest in the one I'm tugging with so when I do finally throw it he's ultra keen to chase it. Missed training this week and haven't wanted to do much equipment until I'm happy with the chasing thing, but I did run him through a couple of weave poles a few times and he's finally doing it at a run instead of a jog. Yaay!

:D