Teaching A Dog To Chase A Toy?

[corvus]

Erik tugs nicely, but he has not much interest in toys that aren't in my hands. I'm finding this to be a bit limiting in agility training. The idea is I throw the toy as a reward when he heads in the right direction and he runs after the toy, but it's not really an instant reward for him. He doesn't race after it. Most of the time he doesn't even try to pick it up until I reach for it. It is quite strange. Usually he will chase moving objects, but apparently not if they are tug toys. He will chase balls, but I haven't tried them as rewards. He tends to run off with them and we're not allowed to take them to training because they get away from dogs and dogs fight over them. I have been teaching him to retrieve, but we are a ways off yet.

I've been thinking maybe I should do releases to me and then throw the toy past me. If he's already running fast he will chase the toy and grab it. I guess I have just never played fetch games with him much and he's not used to seeing toys as something to chase. He certainly gets excited when he sees someone with a Kelpie and a Chuckit at the dog park, though. He's got it in him and he LOVES chasing things fast, I just haven't ever tried to tap it before. I think our training is going really slowly because he doesn't see the toy as something to chase unless it's in my hands. Ideas?

[The Spotted Devil]

Try having more than one ball (I know there a few here that swear by the i-squeaks from Clean Run - no names, no pack drill ) Start with the 2-toy game throwing them one at a time (otherwise known as the 2-food game) - I think Ness has a video of her youngster doing it but don't worry about the bringing it back bit. My Dally has limited long-term interest in tug although he tugs me off my feet initially - developed that by using a food-tug toy (again from Clean Run) and now use that to throw forward in agility (as it's too difficult to see thrown food most of the time) - yes he gets a food reward rather than tug but he still drives forward. I have to play to his strengths to keep his enthusiasm and focus going.

[ness]

Yeah here is the video I have - a little bit of 2 food game, then I switch to using two i-squeaks instead. Not the best footage mind you.

[corvus]

Ah yeah, we've done some of the 2-food game. We do have an i-squeak and a few similar balls. Don't play with them much because he seriously goes MENTAL and I have to have Kivi locked away for his own protection. I used to do a bit of something like the 2-toy game with the balls, but because Kivi really wants to play too but thinks the game involves chewing on Erik and Erik thinks if he doesn't get a ball instantly he should bite Kivi, I kinda did it pretty sporadically. I think a lot of the problem was the lack of room I had to work with. I've done it at the park before and it worked much better as Erik could keep clear of Kivi and that seemed to take care of a lot of the tension. Unfortunately, the only time I've really had it working at the park was when we went to the local fenced park where there is not much to do except kick balls around. At our regular park Erik is more interested in other things. He will tug, though, and is happy to clicker train, so maybe I just need to teach him to chase balls at the park like I taught him to tug at the park.

Thanks.

[Vickie]

I'd be working in a smaller, not a larger area. If he goes mental for the isqueak, it shouldn't be too hard to get him to pick it up in a small area. Can he catch it? Start with him giving it to you after he catches it. Then get him to pick it up of the floor in front of you, then roll it etc. A bigger area will only give him the opportunity for distraction & encourage him not to chase or bring it back

I also often find that sometimes the best way to train something for use as a reward IS to use/offer it as a reward. ie if you build enough anticipation and ask for a down, grabbing onto that toy you have thrown right in front of him is more likely to happen. The minute his mouth touches it, you can deliver a reward marker & then tug for all you're worth.

Have you fixed his collar issue yet? Restraining him will help build anticipation.

Failing all that, send him over here! We have a great record for dogs arriving with no desire to fetch a toy & leaving with an obsession for it

Edited February 25, 2011 by Vickie

[corvus]

I'd be working in a smaller, not a larger area. If he goes mental for the isqueak, it shouldn't be too hard to get him to pick it up in a small area. Can he catch it? Start with him giving it to you after he catches it. Then get him to pick it up of the floor in front of you, then roll it etc. A bigger area will only give him the opportunity for distraction & encourage him not to chase or bring it back

He LOVES catching balls. I taught him to do it one night and he was just so freaking determined he was going to master that skill. Every time he missed it he grunted to himself, grabbed it and spat it out at me for another go. I don't know if it's possible for a dog to have a sense of achievement, but once he nailed the catch he stopped giving it back. He still loves doing it, but just can't bring himself to give it back, even if I walk off and leave him or play with the other dog instead. He doesn't care if I'm not interested in his ball. He still wants to hold it for a while.

I will stick to a smaller area, then. Preferably that's not my backyard where I will likely aggravate the neighbours again.

I also often find that sometimes the best way to train something for use as a reward IS to use/offer it as a reward. ie if you build enough anticipation and ask for a down, grabbing onto that toy you have thrown right in front of him is more likely to happen. The minute his mouth touches it, you can deliver a reward marker & then tug for all you're worth.

Oh, I see. Why didn't I think of that?

Have you fixed his collar issue yet? Restraining him will help build anticipation.

He's doing better all the time. It's good enough to use in this context. The problem with agility is he's not revved enough around the obstacles and is easily brought down instead of up. If I could get him to chase a toy more reliably, that would change I imagine! Along with helping him understand what the hell he's meant to be doing. If I were doing this with my other dog he would have given up by now. It's a nod to Erik's willingness that he's not only still at it but improving as well. I think by now he should be running through obstacles he knows. Instead he's kind of trotting and jogging with the odd run. He's doing it at my pace. Seems to like doing it, but more bemused than excited. He's much smarter and faster than this as a rule.

Failing all that, send him over here! We have a great record for dogs arriving with no desire to fetch a toy & leaving with an obsession for it

Don't tempt me!

[Nekhbet]

why are you throwing the prey reward? It should remain in your posession and be on your terms. Tug, release, new exercise. You shouldnt want the dogs drive to take a dive, as can the focus, when you throw the toy.

If he's being too noisy he needs to learn self control. As soon as the mental attitude comes out put the toy behind your back and look away. When he settles and focus's reward him.

Flirt poles are a great way to increase drive in moving objects.

[Vickie]

why are you throwing the prey reward? It should remain in your posession and be on your terms. Tug, release, new exercise. You shouldnt want the dogs drive to take a dive, as can the focus, when you throw the toy.

nekhbet, how would you go about teaching a dog to drive 15-20 metres straight ahead of you over obstacles?

For agility I would do this by either having them drive to a stationery toy or a thrown toy.

Curious about other methods...

[Nekhbet]

I requirez the clarificationz

I meant for a sendaway throwing a toy removes focus. Using a stationary toy like in this video is the trick. See the handler still plays with the dog as the reward is her playing with the dog, and the dog even turns to face her. This is the beginning exercise you extend from there (which later becomes the Shutzhund sendaway)

If you can get you hands on Ivan Balabanovs Obedience Without Conflict DVDs they're awesome

[corvus]

He has a modicum of self-control around balls. He can down and shut-up, and he can sit and shut-up on cue and hold it for, well once he's in a sit or down he can usually hold it until released. He barks a bit in between throws or being cued sometimes. Not every time, though. It's just Erik being a Vallhund and expressing his high levels of excitement and frustration. Ideally I guess he'd be not quite that aroused. He can still hold it together, though. Just.

I don't think he needs to build drive for chasing. He has PLENTY. It's just tug toys he doesn't chase. We don't use the flirt pole much because he keeps destroying the toys I put on the end. The last one only lasted three sessions. He is a flirt pole destroying machine. Once that one comes out all other rewards fade into insignificance as far as he's concerned.

I had a play this afternoon using 4 balls to keep him from running off with them. He truly loves his Orbee ball on a rope because it's a ball AND a tug. He is wild about it. He gets to catch and then tug! *esplodes* It's bewildering to me that he is like that with the Orbee ball but a regular tug if I throw it may as well not exist. It doesn't exist until I put my hand on it. Do you think it would help if I snuck a tug into the ball collection and periodically threw a tug amongst the balls? Clearly I've conditioned him to see tugs as exclusively tugs rather than something that can potentially be chased and tugged. He will chase them if they are in my hand, but not so much when they leave my hand.

[Vickie]

I requirez the clarificationz

I mean when you are running an agility course & there is a line of jumps where you want the dog to run ahead of you & take the obstacles. About 50% of courses have at least one sequence where it works to your advantage to have the dog driving ahead at speed without waiting for the handler.

Something like this:

I teach mine a Go On command, similar to what the video you posted shows. The toy will either be waiting in the video or it will be thrown. In the early stages I would rather throw the toy than place it. If you place it, the dog can miss obstacles, drop bars or not perform at speed & still be rewarded.

As my dogs become more reliable in taking responsibility for obstacles, I would use a combination of placing & throwing.

I tend not to throw tug toys as I want something I can throw a reasonable distance, I generally use a ball thrower or a frisbee. I have a solid retrieve first & the dog understands that returning the frisbee will earn tugging with it & returning the ball will earn it to be thrown again.

I'm pretty sure this is the basis for Corvus starting this thread

[Nekhbet]

Ideally I guess he'd be not quite that aroused. He can still hold it together, though. Just.

You want arousal. You just want self control and more focus hence he bites Kivi which you should frankly come down on him for. Redirecting is unacceptable behaviour.

I don't think he needs to build drive for chasing. He has PLENTY. It's just tug toys he doesn't chase. We don't use the flirt pole much because he keeps destroying the toys I put on the end. The last one only lasted three sessions. He is a flirt pole destroying machine. Once that one comes out all other rewards fade into insignificance as far as he's concerned.

you dont let the dog chew the tug toy on the end of a flirt pole. Its to tease the dog and when he grabs it you have a little tug, release then start again. The poles are about the chase not the tug, its about frustrating the dog and teaching it the game of chase.

If you place it, the dog can miss obstacles, drop bars or not perform at speed & still be rewarded.

Again this is my point. If the reward is the fact the HANDLER plays with the dog with a prey item there is no self reward by the dog. Using a command for poor performance and cutting the exercise, then going right back to the beginning will show the dog what you want. Some people can work fine with throwing the toy, I think that would be the minority.

The dog should not go, oh dont like that toy, eh not that good. If I have to I reward my dogs by playing with the leash they're attached to. If I have an old jumper on I pull down the sleeve and let them tug on the fabric. But do they randomly then grab the leash/clothing? No. If I dont initiate the reward there is none. Saying that the dog should not be so obsessed with the toy it a) wont give it back and b) cant focus on anything else. You are the reward, not one specific toy hence why Eric runs off with them.

[Vickie]

Some people can work fine with throwing the toy, I think that would be the minority..

certainly not the minority in the agility world.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm still confused

if the reward is the handler interaction with the toy, what is the difference between the toy being on the ground, as in the video you posted, or thrown so that it lands in front if the dog as it is reachng the same point?

In both instances, the reward is happening when the dog returns the toy to handler, yes?

[Kavik]

I throw the toy (not a tug) for individual obstacle or short exercises (eg weaves, sending over jumps) but place the toy on the ground in a bait bag for longer sequences/courses and then when I get to the bag I throw the toy. I practice a lot of sending to the toy in the bait bag on the flat and then throwing it when I get there so he drives well to the bag. The bag is so that he does not self reward

Unfortunately I still can't get Kaos to tug outside of the backyard. And like corvus's dog he is much better at tugging if it is in my hand but much slower to go and send to a tug on the ground, while he will send super fast to his thrown toy on the ground.

[The Spotted Devil]

Some people can work fine with throwing the toy, I think that would be the minority..

certainly not the minority in the agility world.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm still confused :D

if the reward is the handler interaction with the toy, what is the difference between the toy being on the ground, as in the video you posted, or thrown so that it lands in front if the dog as it is reachng the same point?

In both instances, the reward is happening when the dog returns the toy to handler, yes?

Nor in the retrieving world - chasing a 'toy' (ie dummy) comprises the vast majority of training. Delivering to hand is rewarded by throwing another retrieve item. I'm confused with you

[corvus]

You want arousal. You just want self control and more focus hence he bites Kivi which you should frankly come down on him for. Redirecting is unacceptable behaviour.

I'd rather keep Kivi out of the picture than continually allowing Erik to do something I don't want him to do, be rewarded for it, and then punished right after. I like to think I'm a cleaner trainer than that. I don't think that setting him up to go over threshold is conducive to teaching self-control. That was the only point I was making. Lower arousal would help him nail the self-control with minimal stuff-ups.

you dont let the dog chew the tug toy on the end of a flirt pole.

You try to stop him! He is too fast for me, and I have the reflexes of a cat. Anyway, it's a moot point. We don't use the flirt pole at the moment. Trust me, he doesn't need more drive for chasing. He just needs to learn new objects are chaseable.

Saying that the dog should not be so obsessed with the toy it a) wont give it back and b) cant focus on anything else. You are the reward, not one specific toy hence why Eric runs off with them.

But that's my problem. He won't run towards a toy because he doesn't see it as a reward until I have my hand on it. He doesn't want to run to it any faster than I run to it. I actually want him to have more value for the toy in this scenario because I am physically incapable of moving fast enough to get myself where I want to reward him. I have to send him from point A and reward at point B, but at the same time motivate him to move as fast as he can towards point B without training him to only run towards me. The tug is already on the ground where I want to reward him by the time he gets there. Putting it there beforehand is not going to make any difference.

Vickie is bang on for why I started the thread.

Incidentally, Kavik, maybe we should do a little experiment? We could try sneaking tug toys in with toys that get thrown at a ratio of, say, 20% tugs and 80% throw toys and see if we can get our dogs to come to view tug toys and throw toys as the same sort of reward. Or do we not want that?

[Tassie]

I tend not to throw tug toys as I want something I can throw a reasonable distance, I generally use a ball thrower or a frisbee.

I love my Kong Wubba friends for this. Heavy enough to throw a reasonable distance, but still a tug toy - and they squeak - my guys find thes super exciting.

And totally agree with Vickie - in training the agility go on, you really need to be able to throw the reward, to make it quite clear to the dog exactly when the right thing has been done, and reward as quickly as possible, even though you're still catching up to play tug - to me, that best mimics the closing sequence scenario at an agility trial.

Teaching an obedience sendaway, on the other hand is a different proposition, because the dog is being sent to a particular place, and expected to stay there until further command. Then I would use a stationary target.

[Nekhbet]

Nor in the retrieving world - chasing a 'toy' (ie dummy) comprises the vast majority of training. Delivering to hand is rewarded by throwing another retrieve item. I'm confused with you

retrieval is a different kettle of fish. You want the dog to focus on the bird/toy as the prey item so they can find and retrieve it at speed and dont lose the bird. Hence why many hunters use live birds during training, to engage the dog to focus and actively seek the item wherever it is.

if the reward is the handler interaction with the toy, what is the difference between the toy being on the ground, as in the video you posted, or thrown so that it lands in front if the dog as it is reachng the same point?

In both instances, the reward is happening when the dog returns the toy to handler, yes?

*Teaching an obedience sendaway, on the other hand is a different proposition, because the dog is being sent to a particular place, and expected to stay there until further command. Then I would use a stationary target.

That video is the very basic start of the sendaway. Looking at the final product

This type of sendaway is not to a particular place. Its a staight out sendaway until the handler says different, it is not like the obedience 'table' or 'place' as the dog has to just keep running until told otherwise.

Vickie do you mean the handler stands at say the start of a row of jumps and throws the toy? Where is the handler standing when they throw it say at a straight row of 3 jumps?

[Tassie]

Not Vickie - but I'll have a go. I would usually do this in jump technique training as a handler stationary exercise - dog is left at the start of the line, handler walks to a position down the line or at the end, depending on the skill being taught - dog is released from start line, takes the line of jumps independent of handler, and then toy is thrown as the dog clears the final jump.

In a handler moving exercise, the dog (having already done grids, so learnt to go on and take obstacles until given a different cue) will take the line of jumps and either the handler moving down the line but behind the dog, or a helper, will throw the toy as the dog clears the last jump. In agility, this is teaching the dog - is "If I'm cueing forward motion in a straight line by my body movements (wherever I am in relation to you the dog), you keep taking obstacles on that line until you run out of obstacles." As Vickie said earlier, a line of jumps os often the last part of the course - designed for max speed - but even a very skilled and fast handler like Vickie, will still be unlikely to be up with the dog at the end. You don't want the dog having to head check back to the handler to see what to do.

Vickie's Masters Jumping clip shows it really well.

ET fix typos

Edited February 26, 2011 by Tassie

[ness]

http://www.youtube.com/user/ness#p/u/3/ZKtPKLMQJu0

I guess this is kind of the set up where you might throw the reward - although in this session I had the tug placed ahead of the jumps rather than throwing it.

Edited February 26, 2011 by ness