tigger000 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hey guys! So as many of you probably know i am teaching my dog to do scent detection for my course. He is progressing great...we have worked our way up over the past few weeks from 2 boxes to the final 6 boxes which is the number we will be using when we are tested. Anywho, at the moment i am jackpotting him every time he indicates on the target box (giving him about 3-4 treats). When he indicates on a non-target box i say "ah-ah"...take him away from the boxes, wait a few seconds and then get him to repeat the run. I am wondering whether i should be continuing this or changing his reinforcement from a continuous schedule (rewarding everytime he correctly indicates) to an intermittent schedule?.....I do vaguely remember a trainer from the course saying with scent detection you should always reward when they correctly indicate...and never use an intermittent schedule.. Just wondering what other people have done?? cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 always reward for correct indication, always always always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger000 Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 thats what i have been doing! just wanted to check that i am doing it correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Anywho, at the moment i am jackpotting him every time he indicates on the target box (giving him about 3-4 treats).When he indicates on a non-target box i say "ah-ah"...take him away from the boxes, wait a few seconds and then get him to repeat the run. Are the "ah-ah"+leading away something you have been taught to do? Also, when you say jackpot, but it's every time, is it really a jackpot? Continuous schedule is most appropriate here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger000 Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 No the "ah-ah" isnt something we have been taught to do. We were told that if they indicate on a non target box that we should just ignore them and get them to continue sniffing and reward when they indicate on the target one. I started doing this but i hit a problem. My dalmation just started scratching every box. He figured that it doesnt matter if it wasnt the right one...if he just scratched them all, he would eventually get the reward. I wasnt sure how to stop this....hence i started using the "ah-ah" and taking him away from them. If you have any other suggestions as to how to avoid him scratching all boxes then i would love to hear and try it out! And no....it probably isnt a jackpot if i do it everytime! Do you suggest i only reward him with one treat?....and if i did this...when (if ever) would you jackpot? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) If he is scratching every box in the hope of getting a reward, maybe he doesn't fully understand what is wanted and doesn't have a good enough association with the target odour, or you are moving too fast. Is he actually working (using his nose) to search? I wouldn't use a verbal correction. Eventually with scent detection you have to trust the dog as you will not know where the target odour is, so it is important to be able to read your dog's body language to pick up subtle clues as to when he picks up the target odour and to know when he is really using his nose and when he is just guessing/trying everything to see what works. Edited February 23, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I started doing this but i hit a problem. My dalmation just started scratching every box. He figured that it doesnt matter if it wasnt the right one...if he just scratched them all, he would eventually get the reward. I wasnt sure how to stop this....hence i started using the "ah-ah" and taking him away from them. I'm not sure exactly how you're teaching this, but I probably wouldn't have started with active indication. It sounds like he has learned to scratch at boxes until you either take him away or reinforce him on a schedule. That's alright if you want a dog who scratches boxes, but unfortunately it isn't scent detection Someone more familiar with your course curriculum (Nekhbet?) might offer a suggestion that fits better, but I would be doing thousands of trials of passive indication, at first just rewarding when he accidentally sniffs the correct box, then (after a LOT of trials) expecting him to sniff a little longer on the boxes with the target scent, as if he is wondering why I haven't clicked yet because he knows he's definitely got the box that makes me click. Active indication can be put in later when he understands what he is looking for and it can't cause any issues. I would want my dog "trying again" as soon as possible so that he can figure out what makes the reward happen. And no....it probably isnt a jackpot if i do it everytime! Do you suggest i only reward him with one treat?....and if i did this...when (if ever) would you jackpot? I was really asking the question just to get you thinking about jackpots, and possibly to avoid losing points in an assessment if that's the sort of detail they look for. Small pieces of food are usually enough and we don't want them to seem like a disappointment if the dog is used to getting larger rewards. Jackpots are a double-edged sword. I have people swear and declare that jackpots work, but with a bit of probing you start to suspect their assessment of what works is a bit deceptive. We want the dog to be keen and motivated every trial, not just the ones immediately after a jackpot then falling back below whatever level would have been there if a jackpot hadn't been used. If jackpots or frequent corrections are necessary then something is wrong, always worth looking a bit deeper if you find yourself using one or the other. In this case I think you've just moved a bit fast and skipped over the foundations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 did you try what I recommended last time? As I said it seems the dog is not actively sniffing and just seems to be guessing otherwise he would have no problems finding the box (unless you have been placing the item in other boxes and he's indicating on residual odours) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger000 Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Thanks for your replies. I didnt think i was moving too fast. When we had our workshop for the scent detection, we were told by the trainer (a guy who trains customs dogs etc) that the best way to do it is to have the dog indicate on the target box 10 times in a row before adding more boxes. Everytime he indicates on an incorrect box, you start back at 1. So i have been doing this with my dog. and over the past few weeks have worked our way up to 6 boxes. I didnt teach him a passive response as he has a lot of trouble sitting/dropping as he is still recovering from a torn crucit. He does the active response well...and by giving him the "ah-ah" everytime he indicates on a non-target box has actually really helped in stopping him scratching all boxes. To begin with...i just had the target odour in the box without the lid on it. I hid it around the house/outside and everytime he found it (without giving the active response) i rewarded him. I then started hiding it ouside and making it more difficult. Once he was doing that well, i added the lid onto the box...and waited until he started scratching it before i gave him the reward. I am worried that if i go right back to the start (hiding the box without a lid around the house) that i will confuse him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 you dont make it too hard and you can help him along if you need to. But it will make him actively search it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger000 Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 sorry Nekhbet you have me a little confused. Do you think i should go back to the start and hide the box around the house again? and go through the steps again?....sorry had a long day at work and the brain is a little fried! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I say come over to my place for the afternoon, bring some nibbles and we'll workshop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger000 Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 I say come over to my place for the afternoon, bring some nibbles and we'll workshop That would be fantastic! If you're serious about it ill send you a pm. I only have 2 months left of this course...and the assessment is due on april 17th....so that would be an awesome help :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 yup no worries, much easier if I see the dog and we can work together. Asking for speifics ove the net is like me asking what do you think of me wearing this red shirt (not right red but not really dark) with this pencil skirt (it is a sort of silver/charcoal pinstripe thing but I'm not sure about the cute) with these black heels and not see it but go from my description. For all you know it could be a really out of date hideous combo but how I type it sounds OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger000 Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 yup no worries, much easier if I see the dog and we can work together. Asking for speifics ove the net is like me asking what do you think of me wearing this red shirt (not right red but not really dark) with this pencil skirt (it is a sort of silver/charcoal pinstripe thing but I'm not sure about the cute) with these black heels and not see it but go from my description. For all you know it could be a really out of date hideous combo but how I type it sounds OK :D BAHAHAH!!! i like it I will talk to you over pm to organise something thanks again, greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 How was the get together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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