Where Is Dog Training Heading?

[Aidan3]

Lack of reliability does not come from lack of negative consequences for 'disobeying'. It comes from weak conditioning.

Is that your opinion? Or is it an accepted fact?

You don't believe reliability can be increased by consequences for disobeying?

Corvus was quite specific that it was "weak conditioning" and I would agree with that. Conditioning does not equal "positive reinforcement", in the same way that reliability does not equal "negative consequences". Punishment can be a part of building a reliable behaviour through stronger conditioning, but it isn't a prerequisite.

[aussielover]

I think puppy preschools are a fantastic idea that is being let down by unskilled trainers. My partner loves having dogs but doesn't love training them, grooming them, or medicating them. Nonetheless, once he learnt how to train them he came to enjoy being the one in the park with the most obedient and attentive dogs that can perform tricks that make him look cool. As a result, he has got better at training and more things he'd like his dogs to be able to do are within the realms of possibility. Sometimes people ask us how much time we spend training our dogs and we just kind of shrug and say whenever we take them anywhere. Whenever they want something. Any time we are with them, really. I think if people understood that training is something that happens whenever you interact with your dogs, not just when you load yourself with treats and leash the dog up and take it into the backyard for drills, then maybe we would get somewhere.

I totally agree with this and wish more people could experience it!

I'm not the best trainer and my dog is smart but not amazingly smart (like the BC who knows 1000's of words!) but we have been able to master some very simple but very cool tricks She actually knows over 20 different tricks and commands and does useful stuff like bring the newspaper, put my socks into my laundary basket (wish i had a frontloading washing machine so i could get her to put them into it! lol), bring me my shoes, her lead, toys etc.

This has all been achieved with very little effort, i would say only 10 mins a day of "trick" training. It has enabled me to have much more positive interaction with her, instead of telling her off for chewing, digging, being naughty out of boredom!

[corvus]

Is that your opinion? Or is it an accepted fact?

Depends who you ask. I don't know of any specific references that establish it as fact, but I'm not very familiar with learning theory literature. There is A LOT of it. I know a lot of people a lot more experienced than I am that hold that opinion. Aidan was right in pointing out that I didn't say I didn't believe negative consequences had any effect on reliability, I just don't think it is a pre-requisite.

What exactly do you do when your dog doesn't recall? nothing? I have to say I would either start walking away, if it is safe (which is negative in my dogs eyes, but i'm sure some dogs wouldn't care or think it was great!) or I would go and put her back on her lead, then do some recalls on lead.

My hope is I'll be smart enough not to use a recall when my dog isn't going to come, but Kivi has his spitz moments that are very difficult to predict. What can I do if he's belly deep in the swamp at the dog park? I'm extremely reluctant to go in after him for obvious reasons. If I walk away he will come back on his own when he's done. The best thing I can do is prevent it from happening in the first place. If we are not confident we can keep him from going somewhere we don't want him to go, he goes back on leash.

What would you do if your dog was eating dog poop/scraps/other yucky stuff? and wouldn't stop even if you had the his favorite treat? Surely you would at least verbally correct your dog?

Why? What has he done wrong? He's just being a dog, and clearly my training hasn't been conditioned strongly enough. He used to spit out the tastiest of slimy morsels when someone said "leave it!", but we didn't maintain that level of reliability and so the only ones we have to blame if he won't stop is ourselves. If anyone needs correcting it's us for a) letting it happen and b) not maintaining the training required to overcome the problem. I'd just grab his harness and lead him away.

[aussielover]

What would you do if your dog was eating dog poop/scraps/other yucky stuff? and wouldn't stop even if you had the his favorite treat? Surely you would at least verbally correct your dog?

Why? What has he done wrong? He's just being a dog, and clearly my training hasn't been conditioned strongly enough. He used to spit out the tastiest of slimy morsels when someone said "leave it!", but we didn't maintain that level of reliability and so the only ones we have to blame if he won't stop is ourselves. If anyone needs correcting it's us for a) letting it happen and b) not maintaining the training required to overcome the problem. I'd just grab his harness and lead him away.

You must have a lot of self control

Most people couldn't resist exclaiming in horror

[wuffles]

aussielover:

I think those could be sold to the public as not excessive. Hell the RSPCA runs recall clinics that are popular - maybe that's another way to go - training for specific issues which will, of course, inevitably look at the basic dog/owner relationship.

The RSPCA in Canberra hasn't run a recall clinic for at least two years that I know of (I have contacted them about it and check their website regularly).

I do think specific clinics are a brilliant idea and would love to see the dog clubs offer those. Loose leash walking and recall would be great. I even think a tricks class would be popular - and that could take them out of the 'regular' obedience syllabus so that only people who are interested in them have to teach them.

I'm instructing my first beginner's class at the moment and it's a lot harder than I expected. The hardest thing to tackle has been the range in different experiences, breeds and previous training. And when I was in a beginner's class myself, this was also a problem... how to cater for the first time dog owner with a stubborn malamute, as well as an experienced owner with a border collie, in the same one hour class? Anyway, not sure how relevant that is, but I think it's a big part of people dropping out...

[Erny]

Hell the RSPCA runs recall clinics that are popular - maybe that's another way to go - training for specific issues which will, of course, inevitably look at the basic dog/owner relationship.

I have had mini-classes for these on offer for a long time. It is probably my lack of marketing skills but all the same, I know there are a lot of people who visit my site yet very few enquiries for only specific training requirements.

[corvus]

You must have a lot of self control

Most people couldn't resist exclaiming in horror

Oh, there is much exclaiming. My dogs just don't generally care if someone exclaims in horror. I love that about them.

[Leema]

What do you think will gain more attention in dog training in the near future?

I think what is called 'positive training' (which is actually non-adversive, 'mild positive punishment if any' training) will continue to gain steam, and correction/compulsion/traditional training will further diminish. In terms of attention, more attention would be given to the goods of positive and the bads of compulsion which would ultimately cause this swing.

Additionally, I think we're going to see simplification of dog training - Ian Dunbar style.

What would you like to see become common place?

I'd like to see more qualified individuals training - yes, theory qualifications. I'd like to see more regulation of the dog training/dog behaviourist sphere which would ultimately mean less consumers being 'taken for a ride' by those less than qualified.

What do you think needs more development or better understanding?

Ultimately, I'd like more research into wild dogs (e.g. village dogs) so we can gain an understanding of what dogs naturally want to do. For too long we have used a wolf model (e.g. "dogs are pack animals" while all studies I've read regarding village dogs see dogs roaming mostly by themselves, in pairs, and rarely, in threes, and only when a bitch is in season forming groups that are larger).

Paul McGreevy, at his recent Adelaide Seminar, was talking about trying to research what good dog trainers actually do - e.g. rate of reinforcement, leash tension, etc. Though this may disregard the individuality of dogs, it would nonetheless be of interest.

[Kelpie-i]

Leema

Ultimately, I'd like more research into wild dogs (e.g. village dogs) so we can gain an understanding of what dogs naturally want to do. For too long we have used a wolf model (e.g. "dogs are pack animals" while all studies I've read regarding village dogs see dogs roaming mostly by themselves, in pairs, and rarely, in threes, and only when a bitch is in season forming groups that are larger).

Leema, Ray Coppinger does a lot of research and study on village dogs and it's a very interesting concept. I met Ray a few years ago in the USA at a 3 day workshop at Wolf Park...absolutey briliant and a very intelligent man.

[Nekhbet]

What mess? I think dogs are less socialised nowadays than they were when I was a kid, which seems to lead to more aggression problems. I don't think that is because we are afraid of what a dog is. On the contrary, I think we take it entirely too lightly. It's incredible what people do to dogs that should by rights see them get their hand or face taken off. Yet it rarely does, because dogs in general just aren't like that. They've had thousands of years of selective breeding to take it out of them. But just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we should.

I think puppy preschools are a fantastic idea that is being let down by unskilled trainers. My partner loves having dogs but doesn't love training them, grooming them, or medicating them. Nonetheless, once he learnt how to train them he came to enjoy being the one in the park with the most obedient and attentive dogs that can perform tricks that make him look cool. As a result, he has got better at training and more things he'd like his dogs to be able to do are within the realms of possibility. Sometimes people ask us how much time we spend training our dogs and we just kind of shrug and say whenever we take them anywhere. Whenever they want something. Any time we are with them, really. I think if people understood that training is something that happens whenever you interact with your dogs, not just when you load yourself with treats and leash the dog up and take it into the backyard for drills, then maybe we would get somewhere.

Lack of reliability does not come from lack of negative consequences for 'disobeying'. It comes from weak conditioning. I'm never going to correct my dog for not coming when called because it is not a scenario that fits my criteria of a situation suitable for corrections. I can't guarantee that I will be physically able to correct every time. I can't do it with precise timing. I can't ensure that it is not being associated with objects I don't want a negative association with, or behaviour that I don't want to suppress. On top of all that, I'd never correct Kivi anyway. He's too passive and not aware enough. I'd ruin what we had like I did with my previous dog.

The world would be a better place if people thought twice before correcting their dogs. I have seen dogs ruined by well-meaning people that think a dog needs to be told when they have done something wrong. They tell them the same way they would tell a kid: with a shout and a smack. I have faith in effective corrections, but I have no faith in the average dog owner knowing what one is.

you actually reiterated my point ... that dogs are not being treated as dogs. But with all the anti-breed sentiment, and the idea that if a dog behaves like a dog it's defective in some way, most of the population think they are toys with batteries up the butt.

Dogs need consequences. Consequences do not immediately equal corrections. Before you go off at me about corrections read what I wrote. You cannot stop your dog because you train in a consequenceless manner hence the dog will do what he wants to do because you have no way of stopping it.

The world would be a better place if people thought twice before correcting their dogs.

No it wouldnt. It would be a better place if people had more knowledge and accepted their limitations before going out and just buying a dog. In some instances if some people corrected more at the beginning I would have a few less clients. If the acceptance of taking a dog to more then puppy school became the norm again. Before the days of puppy schools you went to dog club. You went while your dog was an adolescent, into adulthood and someone was there to help you through. Now I get a LOT of people who think puppy school is the be all and end all, if they have more problems its the dogs fault. As for those who whinge dog school is too repetitive, when your dog does the behaviour perfectly and has focus week after week after week that is repetitive and useless. Too many people are in a hurry and if the dog does a half hearted off the hip sit out to the side for a second they consider the exercise done. Where is the pride? Where is the achievement? Have we become that much of the instant gratification generation we cant have some patience and appreciate how proper training builds a relationship between you and the dog? That the dog is the one learning as much as they are?

I teach my clients how good and how fun dog training is all over again. High fives and freddos for them trying and getting the dog to do that really nice sit, or nice recall. They need the encouragement too! Then when the basics are there we mix it up a bit, show how these basics lead on to other things in life.

I dont believe that dog training should narrow itself down to a philosophy that totally discounts some methods. If thats how it's headed call me a dinosaur, but I wont become a fossil any time soon. It will just mean more business for people like myself with more methods to hand to deal with behaviour then those that choose to limit what they can and cannot do.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Kelpie-i]

It will just mean more business for people like myself with more methods to hand to deal with behaviour then those that choose to limit what they can and cannot do.

I must say Nekhbet, your last sentence rings so very true for me. I've given up on the whole argument between emotive positive vs negative training so I just don't go there anymore. I do what I do because it works and gets results....and WOM referrals! I am also flat out seeing clients who are coming to me for second opinions because their previous trainer's techniques were not working, regardless of what method was recommended.

The day I discount any one of the quadrants from my training philosophy is the day I hang up my dog training hat.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Kelpie-i

[Nekhbet]

True Kelpi-i. It doesnt mean you use them on every dog, it just means you are intelligent enough to analyse the dog, its behaviour, causes and implement a proper plan that will help the dog most effectively.

It doesnt mean we slap a chain on every dog and yank away until it gives up like some people think.

[PAX]

I agree with you Nekhbet but I also agree with Leema.

I instruct at a local dog club and most of the training methods make me cringe, so old school.

I use motivational methods to train my own dogs, but this is something I build in my pups from day one. It's a different thing when an adult dog comes to training that has already developed so much self reinforcement, and very little (if any) high level rewards from the handler, you don't have much left to train with other than compulsion. You can always go the ruff love method (Susan Garrett) but most owners aren't prepared to do that.

I think dog training needs to go in a direction that doesn't make the owner feel bad or uncomfortable, I also strongly believe in the value of training tricks....makes the owner feel the dog is super smart and puts no pressure on the dog as it's just a trick:)).

[Leema]

Leema, Ray Coppinger does a lot of research and study on village dogs and it's a very interesting concept. I met Ray a few years ago in the USA at a 3 day workshop at Wolf Park...absolutey briliant and a very intelligent man.

Thanks. I have read his chapter on village dogs, but haven't bought the book yet to go further. It is in my plans, however.

ETA: The book is 'Dogs', by the way. If you have further suggestions please let me know.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Leema

[corvus]

Dogs need consequences. Consequences do not immediately equal corrections. Before you go off at me about corrections read what I wrote. You cannot stop your dog because you train in a consequenceless manner hence the dog will do what he wants to do because you have no way of stopping it.

"Stopping" behaviour would indicate suppression, i.e. punishment. It's impossible to train in a "consequenceless" manner. Training is a PRODUCT of consequences.

Before the days of puppy schools you went to dog club. You went while your dog was an adolescent, into adulthood and someone was there to help you through. Now I get a LOT of people who think puppy school is the be all and end all, if they have more problems its the dogs fault. As for those who whinge dog school is too repetitive, when your dog does the behaviour perfectly and has focus week after week after week that is repetitive and useless. Too many people are in a hurry and if the dog does a half hearted off the hip sit out to the side for a second they consider the exercise done. Where is the pride? Where is the achievement? Have we become that much of the instant gratification generation we cant have some patience and appreciate how proper training builds a relationship between you and the dog? That the dog is the one learning as much as they are?

I went to dog training club, and it single-handedly ruined my relationship with my dog. My mother went, and that's where all her problems started. She went to several and the problems were compounded each time. She no longer goes to training clubs. Little wonder. It was never enjoyable for her. She was alternately abused and ignored. Even flyball left her bitter and jaded and sworn off all dog-related activities.

A dog is being trained every time they interact with people and other dogs. If people understood that, maybe they'd be inclined to take a more proactive approach.

[Nekhbet]

"Stopping" behaviour would indicate suppression, i.e. punishment. It's impossible to train in a "consequenceless" manner. Training is a PRODUCT of consequences.

Twist words how you like. If you stuck a muzzle on Eric while out so he couldnt pick up a baited animal and he didnt mind wearing it, is that too punishment? Is keeping him on a long line so he cant reach the bait but will hence though proximity be more interested in your reward punishment?

As for lack of consequences - by your definition then your dog has few. I suppose when you make enough excuses for something you previously found undesirable to accept it you really dont need to try too hard to change it.

I went to dog training club, and it single-handedly ruined my relationship with my dog. My mother went, and that's where all her problems started. She went to several and the problems were compounded each time. She no longer goes to training clubs. Little wonder. It was never enjoyable for her. She was alternately abused and ignored. Even flyball left her bitter and jaded and sworn off all dog-related activities.

A dog is being trained every time they interact with people and other dogs. If people understood that, maybe they'd be inclined to take a more proactive approach.

You obviously went to a crap dog club. Problem is instead of simply being intelligent enough to understand the problems of what happened you seem to have this rabid protest going against any form of correction, punishment, consequence or other normal things in life. Frankly its getting a bit tiring. You had one bad experience with obviously people who were plain bad, and you now pigeon hole everyone who you deem is in the same training category as them and slam them down.

If you want to be a supposed dog behaviourist go to dog clubs, learn the good, bad and the ugly that goes along in the dog world. See many, see different training techniques and hell even see them done PROPERLY so you can have at least an educated opinion on them. Learn also that a totally hands off approach can ruin a dog just as easily as a too hands on. Speaking of 'ruining' unless your dog has serious serious critical period or genetic nerve problems they're hard to truely 'ruin'. You would have to absolutely terrorise, and I mean back into a corner and beat until it breaks, a dog to ruin it that much it's never fixable again. Bad habits are a pain in the arse to fix, the longer you leave them the longer they try to keep kicking on, but very very few dogs are 'unfixable' in the right hands.

People need to go out and learn from good trainers. They need to go do some obedience, some agility, and I wish we could do schutzhund at least in Vic again. There are too many working breeds now locked up in backyards. Considering most trainers cannot even do basic prey exercises with dogs is quite disheartening. We have gone backwards into a fun fun fluffy fru fru world.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Nekhbet

[corvus]

Bah. Never mind.

Edited February 25, 2011 by corvus

[Erny]

Bah. Never mind.

I agree with Nekhbet. Good advice .... don't know why you're so easily dismissive of it .

Edited February 26, 2011 by Erny

[JulesP]

My club does most of the things people are suggesting. Lots of lifestyle stuff, positive training, tricks taught etc.

For me personally I hate the lifestyle stuff. Think it should be up to the individual to decide if they want their dog to wait for its dinner etc.

Interestingly people do ark up at the tricks. My beginners have to teach a trick. The last class has been all pet people and they were quite resistant about the tricks, I pretty much told them in the end that they had to teach one to pass. Most of the lifestyle stuff isn't super well received actually. They all mainly want the dogs not to pull on the lead.

They do all enjoy the puppy confidence course though. That has tunnels. steps, tires, little walk overs and different surfaces to walk on.

I don't agree with my clubs stance on correction collars. I would rather be allowed to teach people proper use of them.

[Erny]

Interestingly people do ark up at the tricks. My beginners have to teach a trick. The last class has been all pet people and they were quite resistant about the tricks, I pretty much told them in the end that they had to teach one to pass. Most of the lifestyle stuff isn't super well received actually. They all mainly want the dogs not to pull on the lead.

That's interesting, JulesP. We teach a trick ('touch') in our first level and use that almost like a sorbe between obedience tasks. I find most people really enjoy it probably because it is something most dogs catch on to really quickly. Everyone (dogs inclusive) feel very clever. It is something we will/can use later on in amongst training issues and/or higher level training.

I wonder why people would not appreciate trick training. Perhaps it is something that people would appreciate more in a slightly higher level other than beginners ..... once they have mastered/improved on the art of loose lead walking. This is something that is really important to most if not everyone and if they don't have that going very well they might be considering the time spent on tricks a waste of time until the important things are under control ???? Perhaps?

They do all enjoy the puppy confidence course though. That has tunnels. steps, tires, little walk overs and different surfaces to walk on.

We did a bit of play with the tunnel with our obedience group last week - everyone loved it. Always does seem to be a popular activity.

I don't agree with my clubs stance on correction collars. I would rather be allowed to teach people proper use of them.

I think this is very important. In our Foundation group, training is predominantly positive - very much emphasis placed on motivation and teaching people how to structure motivation to suit training enhancement. I like everyone to start on flat collars for a couple of reasons : The first of which is so that people have a chance to develop at least some co-ordination in their lead handling instead of trying to learn that and handle a training collar well at the same time. The other is so that we (instructors) have a chance to see what each dog is like - its behaviour/training issues and give us an idea of what training tool would be the most suitable, if it is at that stage needed. Some people have thought that we are opposed to training collars and were working their dog in a flat collar at training and going home to use their training collar. Generally it wouldn't be very long before we'd find this out and are then able to explain what we're doing, so no harm done. But the point being that people will use their training tools if they find these make handling/holding easier, regardless of what their weekly lessons teach. Schools that shun these tools only really preclude people from learning how to use them properly.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Erny