Where Is Dog Training Heading?

[corvus]

I think when you surround yourself in theory (as seems to be the current trend), it can all become a bit of a mess in your mind. Read 10 different articles & you will read 10 different ideas. It is overwhelming sometimes & very hard for the average person to apply any of it.

Really? Maybe I'm weird. I find the complete opposite. The more theory I read the better it all comes together as one unified system in my head. I go "Ah! That makes sense because I had already read this..." It's like joining the dots. I started "training" my hare before I knew about learning theory. But I am so much more successful with him now than I've ever been, and I attribute that directly to knowing more about behaviour in general. Although it probably helped that I had already learnt to pay closer attention to what my animal was signalling (thanks Erik).

Not to diminish the importance of practice or simple experience, but I guess I feel like I can't do much until I have a good idea what's happening and why and whether I want to change it and how to achieve what ends.

[poodlefan]

Our club completely changed its curriculum a few years back to cater for pet/companionship training. Problem was, basing classes on the needs of those who only stayed short term (even if they are the majority) failed to prepare those who wanted to go on to do other things with the basics they needed. Long term trainers are the next generation of instructors and the back bone of our club. The pendulum has swung back towards the middle for now thank God.

I dont' see why there can't be a mix of pet classes and obedience classes at a club? If people found the pet classes interesting and actually saw the results and how they improved their relationship with their dog then they might be more interested in the obedience stuff too.

The challenge would be too run two streams from the beginning.. simply not the call for it at this stage.

I don't see "pet" training and "obedience" training as incompatible if taught correctly from the get go. For most folk you're only talking about 1 8 week class anyway. However some of the things being taught at one stage were incompatible. One 'fun' exercise taught was to find things under plastic cones.. which are used by many clubs as numbers for agility courses. A dog taught that finding the right cone would yield a tasty treat was a tad conflicted.

[corvus]

There's no getting him away from a dead bird, though

just curious, are you saying this is impossible to ever resolve or just not possible with the range of solutions you have tested so far?

Well, there is getting him away from a dead bird. I can go and get him, or I can call him away before he finds one, and sometimes if I'm close enough he'll recall away from it, but I usually only try that if I'm really close. His recalls are as good as nearly 3 years of regular successful practice can make them and I don't have any complaints, really. I can live with the odd failed recall, and it's not a big problem seeing as most of the time there are no carcasses to tempt him, so I haven't tried very hard to improve his reliability around dead birds other than just plugging away at his recalls.

[Esky the husky]

I can't say I know where training is headed.

But from these responses i'm even happier with the club esky and I attend.

The first 10 weeks were 'bronze' level. Pups and first timers to the club all had to complete it

It was your basic, sit, stay, stand, drop, touch, hold and give, leave it and recall.

Really well taught.

Next level is silver, which we are in. The first 4 or so weeks that you are in silver, it's a bit of a newbies class. This is when the clickers are introduced and it takes a bit of time for the owners to get the hang of it.

Then the silver people can all train together.

We work on all kinds of things in class, stuff for people that just want a 'nice dog' and we're doing more and more obedience stuff too. Finding an article, heeling, retrieves, dropping on recall etc etc

We are also starting to dabble in agility, jumps, a frame, weavers, tunnels and table so far. Even if we weren't keen to compete, there are still a lot of valuable skills there for pet owners

On completion of this course you also receive a certificate that will discount registration for your pet.

It seems a shame that more schools aren't like this

[Vickie]

I think when you surround yourself in theory (as seems to be the current trend), it can all become a bit of a mess in your mind. Read 10 different articles & you will read 10 different ideas. It is overwhelming sometimes & very hard for the average person to apply any of it.

Really? Maybe I'm weird. I find the complete opposite. The more theory I read the better it all comes together as one unified system in my head. I go "Ah! That makes sense because I had already read this..." It's like joining the dots. I started "training" my hare before I knew about learning theory. But I am so much more successful with him now than I've ever been, and I attribute that directly to knowing more about behaviour in general. Although it probably helped that I had already learnt to pay closer attention to what my animal was signalling (thanks Erik).

Not to diminish the importance of practice or simple experience, but I guess I feel like I can't do much until I have a good idea what's happening and why and whether I want to change it and how to achieve what ends.

yes really. I don't think you are weird, but the 2 questions I would ask you are:

are you the average person? And

would you call yourself an accomplished trainer?

I assume this thread is not specifically directed at those doing formal studies in animal behaviour.

I think what I wrote is true for the average person who wants to train their dog/s to do something

[Erny]

I agree with PF. I would LOVE to see a shift toward problem prevention rather than problem solving. However, convincing people to be pro active about their dogs when their currently isn't a problem in their eyes is so very hard.

I agree with PF. I know for a fact that there are some who have thought me as being anal when I explain what they need to do to prevent later problems. I think it's the "it won't happen to us" syndrome, especially when they're looking into their baby puppy's 'melting moment' chocolate brown eyes.

[Kelpie-i]

Too many people taking the easy way out....by that I mean they would rather medicate their dogs than actually train and rehabilitate them...Soooooo I would like to see less recommending of medication by vets and vetbeh's for things like boredom, lack of stimulation, training and leadership and more emphasis on training, problem solving and activity with their dogs.

[BMAK]

more fun!!!!!, smaller interaction groups, fast paced, gamed training for one exercise.

At our club since there are soo many people with there dogs a lot of bush bashing happens in the beginers corner and even further on....

I am doing motivational training at the moment for beginers, haven't really stuck to the books at all.

i have alot of high drive dogs that don't coupe doing fifty exercises in a row for a piece of food each time not even my own dog wants to be there.

so i am teaching them rewards of a different kind to use at home eg. tugs/balls as well as food.

The dogs certainly know the difference, and will want to work now that the handlers have been informed and know how to start training with drive, focus and longer attention spands.

My wish list but it probably won't happen as it is too much of a distraction for younger classes

which is a shame as most dogs would probably perform better.

[corvus]

yes really. I don't think you are weird, but the 2 questions I would ask you are:

are you the average person?

I don't know. What's an average person? I'm average amongst the people I usually spend time with.

And

would you call yourself an accomplished trainer?

No. But I am aware that I have improved as a trainer. I hope I will continue to improve for a good while yet. I attribute much of that improvement to knowing more theory.

I assume this thread is not specifically directed at those doing formal studies in animal behaviour.

I think what I wrote is true for the average person who wants to train their dog/s to do something

No need to get snippy. The fact that I'm doing formal studies in animal behaviour has no real bearing on how I learn or how I organise my mind or whether I find theory confusing or not. I was interested that you said it was confusing because my experience has been quite different despite being quite new to this myself. Differences in experiences interest me. I like whys. This is no exception. I was hoping you'd elaborate is all.

[dasha]

I think sometimes the people with the least amount of formal theory based training can in fact become a better trainer.

IMO i think this is because these type of people that put the time into training their animal bacause it naturally interests them, then use the animals response to gauge the success of the training. If the result isn't the desired one, these informal people then try new thing s and therefore learn more as they then need to think for themselves on how to alter the behaviour, or motivate animal or whatever it is they are trying to achieve.

If people are to rely on other peoples theory too much, it inhibits your own learning as you are trying to simulate someone elses interpretation of a behaviour or training method that may not be suitable to the average owner or pet do

[Nekhbet]

bring back the old theory that a dog is a dog, that it needs mental stimulation and training, and that you just GO to training like everyone used to when I was a kid. All rocked up to the dog obedience club saying that I think it was like a gold coin donation for the lesson after paying your yearly fee.

Bring back schutzhund, herding, tracking, dogs going out everywhere

stop this mess of berating people when they CORRECT THEIR DOGS EFFECTIVELY. Dogs sometimes need corrections get the heck over it.

There's no getting him away from a dead bird, though, and I don't think I can get a steady supply of day old quail chicks for recall treats

Sorry Corvus but when you teach your dog there is no consequence for not listening this is what happens. So you end up accepting the behavior. Plenty of ways of getting him to leave dead birds alone.

bring back giving snot nosed brats clouts on the back of the head for tormenting dogs

we're in this mess because we've become afraid of what a dog actually is. We like the cutesy side, not the realistic side and hence we're forgetting what a dogs actual needs are. Hence this over breeding, not socialising puppies, thinking puppy preschool is the be all and end all, or then you hit overpriced-open-a-vein dog training schools.

From what I see a lot of dog training is heading the wrong way. People over analyse dogs, they make things harder then they are then it all falls apart .... then its just a bad dog. Some people are right, many are so deep in theory they forget about the dog. Some can talk the talk, regurgitate text books but i'm yet to see them fix a basic problem or hell control their own dogs.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Nekhbet

[charley101]

we have started to incorporate more fun into our pet dog training lesson plans but still cover all the basics. Our customers and there dogs seems to love it

Edited February 24, 2011 by charley101

[aussielover]

I haven't seen anything to suggest that Nekhbet's methods would cause a dog to be scared???

If you're never going to correct your dog (and I don't necessarily mean physical correction) then you have to accept some possibly undesirable actions.

There is nothing wrong with correcting your dog, so long as it is appropriate and the dog understands what to do to avoid the correction the next time. I don't think there is any service dog organisation that wouldn't use some form of correction in training their dogs.

I would also like to see "puppy classes" become more fun. I think serious obedience people are not going to take their dogs to obedience schools anyway (as they are too long with too many distractions for a young puppy) so there is no point in spending 1 hr teaching a pup to walk in a straight line or go around in circles with the occaisonal sit and drop.

I like puppy classes that do incorporate some heeling and basic obedience but where you also do a lot of fun stuff like teaching tricks, playing games, discussing house-training and how to prevent resource guarding and jumping etc. Personally I found doing a lot of trick training at home really helped me to understand how my dog learnt and helped me to bond with her. It is nice to have a dog you are proud of!

imo, theory can only take you so far. If you can't apply your knowledge, then its basically useless. And dogs are not all the same, some respond to different methods of training better.

I also think a trainer should be open to trying many different methods (provided they are humane and effective) of training a behaviour or fixing a problem.

[poodlefan]

aussielover:

I like puppy classes that do incorporate some heeling and basic obedience but where you also do a lot of fun stuff like teaching tricks, playing games, discussing house-training and how to prevent resource guarding and jumping etc.

The problem with teaching tricks, playing games etc is that a lot of puppy owners don't go to puppy school for that purpose. What was one comment "I dont' want a circus dog".

Our club fell into that trap for a while - a bunch of dedicated dog trainers who decided what would be wonderful for pups to learn and not what your average everyday owner NEEDS to know.

The question trainers need to ask themselves is what puppy owners DO want.

From the survey our club did, mostly they want a dog they can walk on a loose lead, that comes when it's called, isnt' going to knock the kids over or bite them and that's about it. They didnt' care about targetting, about tricks, about basic scent work etc.

Toilet training is only useful for about 50% of owners -those that allow their dogs inside.

Most trainers have 6-8 weeks to set a dog up for life. We all know that's a pretty tall order.

So boring them with theories of operant conditioning (seen it done), providing them with clickers (that will be binned and never used after the classes) and teaching 'nice to have' stuff like tricks eats the time you've got.

In my ideal world, puppy owners would do kindy and high school as a bare minimum.

They'd come for 8 weeks for the very basics. Walking on lead, sitting for pats/dinner, tolerance of handling (including nail clipping), dealing with mouthing, how to do appropriate socialisation and some general advice and reference to ongoing resources. General husbandry advice is also important. Never ceases to amaze me the number of owners who roll up with their new pup and have no idea how to groom it. Oodle owners are a case in point.

Then back for 8 weeks at six months - more on lead skills, big work on the recalls and other essential skills.

I think those could be sold to the public as not excessive. Hell the RSPCA runs recall clinics that are popular - maybe that's another way to go - training for specific issues which will, of course, inevitably look at the basic dog/owner relationship.

Edited February 23, 2011 by poodlefan

[Cosmolo]

Its true PF. I recognise that at least 50% of my puppy owners i will only see for 4 weeks. So during that time i must cover some of the most important skills and problems. On the one hand i think its not a good thing that we are beginning to compensate for people's lack of committment, but on the other hand, i am a realist and if i know i won't see some of them again i want to set them up as best i can in a short period of time..

I think you need to have a balance of theory and practice. You can love theory without getting bogged down in it when teaching others. I sure do- i had a discussion with another trainer last week where we disagreed for the first time and delved deep into theory and it was great. It made me think about whay i do some of teh things i do and why she does them differently- discussions like that improve my practical training.

[corvus]

we're in this mess because we've become afraid of what a dog actually is. We like the cutesy side, not the realistic side and hence we're forgetting what a dogs actual needs are. Hence this over breeding, not socialising puppies, thinking puppy preschool is the be all and end all, or then you hit overpriced-open-a-vein dog training schools.

What mess? I think dogs are less socialised nowadays than they were when I was a kid, which seems to lead to more aggression problems. I don't think that is because we are afraid of what a dog is. On the contrary, I think we take it entirely too lightly. It's incredible what people do to dogs that should by rights see them get their hand or face taken off. Yet it rarely does, because dogs in general just aren't like that. They've had thousands of years of selective breeding to take it out of them. But just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we should.

I think puppy preschools are a fantastic idea that is being let down by unskilled trainers. My partner loves having dogs but doesn't love training them, grooming them, or medicating them. Nonetheless, once he learnt how to train them he came to enjoy being the one in the park with the most obedient and attentive dogs that can perform tricks that make him look cool. As a result, he has got better at training and more things he'd like his dogs to be able to do are within the realms of possibility. Sometimes people ask us how much time we spend training our dogs and we just kind of shrug and say whenever we take them anywhere. Whenever they want something. Any time we are with them, really. I think if people understood that training is something that happens whenever you interact with your dogs, not just when you load yourself with treats and leash the dog up and take it into the backyard for drills, then maybe we would get somewhere.

Lack of reliability does not come from lack of negative consequences for 'disobeying'. It comes from weak conditioning. I'm never going to correct my dog for not coming when called because it is not a scenario that fits my criteria of a situation suitable for corrections. I can't guarantee that I will be physically able to correct every time. I can't do it with precise timing. I can't ensure that it is not being associated with objects I don't want a negative association with, or behaviour that I don't want to suppress. On top of all that, I'd never correct Kivi anyway. He's too passive and not aware enough. I'd ruin what we had like I did with my previous dog.

The world would be a better place if people thought twice before correcting their dogs. I have seen dogs ruined by well-meaning people that think a dog needs to be told when they have done something wrong. They tell them the same way they would tell a kid: with a shout and a smack. I have faith in effective corrections, but I have no faith in the average dog owner knowing what one is.

[Diva]

The problem with teaching tricks, playing games etc is that a lot of puppy owners don't go to puppy school for that purpose. What was one comment "I dont' want a circus dog".

I'm not the average owner, but I stopped bothering with the club classes - participating and instructing - for much the same reason. In a busy week getting to the classes at the time they are run is an effort. I don't then want to spend my very precious time on tricks and tedious games, I want outcomes that matter to how I live with the dogs.

I don't mean I want paddock bashing either, I'm looking to establish sound foundations and experience well managed socialisation (not free for alls) with young dogs. And then somewhere I can go for competition instruction if I decide to do that with a paticular dog. I'm looking around for private trainers for the later at the moment.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Diva

[aussielover]

Lack of reliability does not come from lack of negative consequences for 'disobeying'. It comes from weak conditioning. I'm never going to correct my dog for not coming when called because it is not a scenario that fits my criteria of a situation suitable for corrections. I can't guarantee that I will be physically able to correct every time. I can't do it with precise timing. I can't ensure that it is not being associated with objects I don't want a negative association with, or behaviour that I don't want to suppress. On top of all that, I'd never correct Kivi anyway. He's too passive and not aware enough. I'd ruin what we had like I did with my previous dog.

The world would be a better place if people thought twice before correcting their dogs. I have seen dogs ruined by well-meaning people that think a dog needs to be told when they have done something wrong. They tell them the same way they would tell a kid: with a shout and a smack. I have faith in effective corrections, but I have no faith in the average dog owner knowing what one is.

Is that your opinion? Or is it an accepted fact?

You don't believe reliability can be increased by consequences for disobeying?

In my (limited) experience it can. It doesn't have to be a physical correction either.

What exactly do you do when your dog doesn't recall? nothing? I have to say I would either start walking away, if it is safe (which is negative in my dogs eyes, but i'm sure some dogs wouldn't care or think it was great!) or I would go and put her back on her lead, then do some recalls on lead.

What would you do if your dog was eating dog poop/scraps/other yucky stuff? and wouldn't stop even if you had the his favorite treat? Surely you would at least verbally correct your dog?

[Pippi]

we're in this mess because we've become afraid of what a dog actually is. We like the cutesy side, not the realistic side and hence we're forgetting what a dogs actual needs are. Hence this over breeding, not socialising puppies, thinking puppy preschool is the be all and end all, or then you hit overpriced-open-a-vein dog training schools.

The world would be a better place if people thought twice before correcting their dogs. I have seen dogs ruined by well-meaning people that think a dog needs to be told when they have done something wrong. They tell them the same way they would tell a kid: with a shout and a smack. I have faith in effective corrections, but I have no faith in the average dog owner knowing what one is.

@ Corvus - Absolutely agree with this statement, spot-on. I would prefer to see more people put their effort into actually teaching their dogs to fluency, the behaviours they want, rather than teach something with minimal repetitions believing then that the dog should 'know' the behaviour. Corrections are then, IMO unfairly introduced when this is a training issue, not the dogs fault.

[Cosmolo]

I don't know how to quote but if i did i would quote that last line of yours Corvus- and i completely agree. Thats one of the major things that has changed and shaped how we train over the last 5 years. It matters little if i can give a correction that is effective if the owner cannot. And (this may be for another topic) the owner has to learn this skill- how many mistakes (in terms of timing etc) are acceptable and not of significant detriment to the dog.