Where Is Dog Training Heading?

[Aidan3]

Just out of curiousity, what do trainers/instructors consider to be the appropriate theories to pass on to owners looking for basic obedience?

I like them to be able to explain the difference between operant and classical conditioning, using the Rescorla-Wagner model and Herrnstein's Matching Law to illustrate the difference. If they can do that, I let them have their car keys back.

Failing that, if they can show me they know when to click and treat, and how to satisfy themselves that the response is actually increasing and how to back up if it isn't, I'm happy.

Good question, btw, worth thinking about.

Good idea I would like a new car, cept ma math is worst than ma ingleesh.

It's not a new car, they get the keys to their old car back! With just enough petrol to get home.

[JulesP]

I'll be honest with you, I've never really "got" why a lot of writers and instructors teach classical conditioning in relation to the clicker. The only thing I'm worried about when using a clicker (provided the dog isn't sound sensitive) is whether or not I get more of the response I clicked.

My club (and the Delta instructor I used) teach the clicker a little bit differently from some others. Some people click and treat immediately. I do it to mean a 'yes that is right and a reward is coming soon'. Therefore you need to use classical conditioning to make the 'yes' or click mean something. If you click and treat immediately then yes I can't see CC coming into play as much.

[Nekhbet]

explain classical conditioning when discussing charging the marker word. It is usually met with totally blank don't care looks. The only thing that I talk about that does get interest is NILIF. This is with pet owners at a club in a group class. Maybe this is why I am frustrated with teaching at the moment.

The average dog owner is not interested. It's like saying you've bought a car here we're going to have to make you a mechanic now.

They just want their dogs to learn quickly, themselves learn the basics and life to be happy. Remember if they were interested in any more they would be doing a dog trainers course.

The faster people learn that the less frustrated they will be with others. There's more to life then regurgitating a text book to others, and that takes a hell of a lot more skill to do.

[corvus]

Of course there is theory involved, as with everything...but good luck to anyone who thinks it will be discussed in any detail by the average Aussie stockperson

;) Patricia McConnell loves herding and I am pretty sure she attacks it with the same scientific scrutiny she attacks every interaction she has with animals. Some people just work best that way. I like to know the goal and then I work backwards in my head and fill in all the blanks. Without knowing the goal I am a handling disaster.

Thanks, Aidan, that makes sense. I know you don't need the details to train a dog, but I don't think I will ever understand passionate trainers that don't love theory. There are lots of things I just do without knowing the why or how, but all the things I love I research the hell out of. :D That's how I get better at it. And practising. It's a mechanical skill. :D

As enlightening as this has been, I still don't really know what to expect from trainers. :D I was sort of starting to give up on expectations all together. I am frankly too scared to ask a trainer about anything particularly technical at least until I know them pretty well. It seems like the quickest and surest way to make an enemy of them. If I were to come into your class, would you want me to pretend I don't know anything and keep out of your way? Or would you want to know what my background was? How would you feel if I wanted to modify an exercise you set because I thought I knew how to make it more effective with my dog?

[corvus]

The average dog owner is not interested. It's like saying you've bought a car here we're going to have to make you a mechanic now.

Can I just say at this point that this is not what I'm getting at at all. When I learnt how to ride a motorbike I wasn't very interested in how it runs, but if I wanted to know what would happen if I hit a bump while cornering I would ask my motorcycle instructor and I would hope they'd be able to tell me. And I wouldn't expect a definitive answer, I'd expect something along the lines of "If your tyres have plenty of grip left on them and are properly inflated and you weren't going too fast... But if there was gravel on the road as well as a bump... Or if the bump ran vertically along the road rather than horizontally..." and so on. And when I asked questions like that those were the sorts of answers I'd get. I'm not saying I expect to go to a training class and be taught why different training methods work the way they do. I'm saying I expect to go to a training class and be able to ask moderately involved questions about applying training to my specific dog (in a quiet time or after class) and get an informative answer.

[JulesP]

If I were to come into your class, would you want me to pretend I don't know anything and keep out of your way? Or would you want to know what my background was? How would you feel if I wanted to modify an exercise you set because I thought I knew how to make it more effective with my dog?

Yes I would like to know your background. I like to know all my pupils so that I can give extra tips to people that want to compete etc.

I would not want you to be having a theory discussion in the class as that would probably peeve the other people. No one likes it when one person takes up the time. But I always stay after class for shy people or any other questions.

It would depend on how you were modifying the exercise. If I thought the modification was going to bugger up the end result then I would be objecting. We would discuss it. When I modify something (and I do) I usually discuss with the instructor first and explain my reason why. No one ever minds this approach and often it is used as an example to the class I am in. That you need to know your own dog. I am however open to what the instructor has to say about it.

When I am looking for an instructor i suss out before the lesson whether they are going to be the sort of person I am going to like. For what you want Corvus word of mouth is important. Actually I can't think of any instructor I have gone to were I haven't got a word of mouth suggestion. I think you would also love clinics. Lots of theory in them usually.

[JulesP]

The average dog owner is not interested. It's like saying you've bought a car here we're going to have to make you a mechanic now.

Can I just say at this point that this is not what I'm getting at at all. When I learnt how to ride a motorbike I wasn't very interested in how it runs, but if I wanted to know what would happen if I hit a bump while cornering I would ask my motorcycle instructor and I would hope they'd be able to tell me. And I wouldn't expect a definitive answer, I'd expect something along the lines of "If your tyres have plenty of grip left on them and are properly inflated and you weren't going too fast... But if there was gravel on the road as well as a bump... Or if the bump ran vertically along the road rather than horizontally..." and so on. And when I asked questions like that those were the sorts of answers I'd get. I'm not saying I expect to go to a training class and be taught why different training methods work the way they do. I'm saying I expect to go to a training class and be able to ask moderately involved questions about applying training to my specific dog (in a quiet time or after class) and get an informative answer.

If the owner asks then I will explain. But I don't volunteer the info upfront as eyes glaze over.

[Nekhbet]

I'm saying I expect to go to a training class and be able to ask moderately involved questions about applying training to my specific dog (in a quiet time or after class) and get an informative answer.

I said the average dog owner corvus. They want enough information to inderstand what they're doing and if they ask a question of course I am happy to discuss it. But most of them just want enough info to get the job done. And frankly why should they need more if you're a good trainer and their dog has no remarkable behaviours.

[bedazzledx2]

To be honest corvus, if you came into a class I was teaching I wouldn't give a bugger what your background was. All I would be interested in is what your skill set was. Where are you having trouble and how can I, as your instructor, help you and your dog.

Of course there is theory involved, as with everything...but good luck to anyone who thinks it will be discussed in any detail by the average Aussie stockperson

;) Patricia McConnell loves herding and I am pretty sure she attacks it with the same scientific scrutiny she attacks every interaction she has with animals. Some people just work best that way. I like to know the goal and then I work backwards in my head and fill in all the blanks. Without knowing the goal I am a handling disaster.

Thanks, Aidan, that makes sense. I know you don't need the details to train a dog, but I don't think I will ever understand passionate trainers that don't love theory. There are lots of things I just do without knowing the why or how, but all the things I love I research the hell out of. :D That's how I get better at it. And practising. It's a mechanical skill. :D

As enlightening as this has been, I still don't really know what to expect from trainers. :D I was sort of starting to give up on expectations all together. I am frankly too scared to ask a trainer about anything particularly technical at least until I know them pretty well. It seems like the quickest and surest way to make an enemy of them. If I were to come into your class, would you want me to pretend I don't know anything and keep out of your way? Or would you want to know what my background was? How would you feel if I wanted to modify an exercise you set because I thought I knew how to make it more effective with my dog?

[Vickie]

Of course there is theory involved, as with everything...but good luck to anyone who thinks it will be discussed in any detail by the average Aussie stockperson

Patricia McConnell loves herding and I am pretty sure she attacks it with the same scientific scrutiny she attacks every interaction she has with animals.

;) I have no idea why you are shrugging...any more than why you feel the need to bring up Patricia McConnell at my suggestion that THE AVERAGE AUSSIE STOCKPERSON (something she is CLEARLY NOT) would be reluctant to discuss detailed theory. It is actions like this that, if performed continually, would irritate most instructors. It is simply not relevant.

I have attended a lot of seminars and classes. There are always the same people that ask the same types of questions. I feel most of them are subconsciously (or not) trying to earn attention, form some alliance with the trainer, big note themselves, belittle others etc. Most of the questions are irrelevant to the group & often irrelevant even to that person. Even if they save these questions till later, these people often end up learning the least at the seminar. They are too busy planning their statements/questions/interruptions to be really taking in the information. Added to that, they negatively impact others as well, since the trainer is often interrupted half way through giving valuable information. They are also the people that often perform poorly with their dogs, since they have placed unreasonable pressure & expectations on their abilities. Trying desperately to impress is a sure fire way to make you dog wonder why you're acting weird.

I enjoy playing devils advocate during online discussions, but would never consider it in a class or private training situation. What works for me is to be quiet, listen & try really hard. Not only does it get results, it often earns the respect of the trainer that the constant questioners seem to so desperately seek. Sometimes instructors have the answers you seek, sometimes they don't. I learnt a long time ago that the information is there if you need to access it & research further.

Maybe some or none of the above applies to you Corvus, but I would suggest that a little humility in a training situation never goes astray.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Vickie

[poodlefan]

I have attended a lot of seminars and classes. There are always the same people that ask the same types of questions. I feel most of them are subconsciously (or not) trying to earn attention, form some alliance with the trainer, big note themselves, belittle others etc. Most of the questions are irrelevant to the group & often irrelevant even to that person. Even if they save these questions till later, these people often end up learning the least at the seminar. They are too busy planning their statements/questions/interruptions to be really taking in the information. Added to that, they negatively impact others as well, since the trainer is often interrupted half way through giving valuable information.

Yep. Always a few attention hoggers.

Always a few of the "yeah, but" or "but my dog" sentence starting types. Always a few who think learning needs to involve a debate in which they subtlely demonstrate to the audience and the instructor they they are a superior kind of dog trainer/owner more deserving of attention than others.

And they always irritate the bejesus out of the other attendees. And most of us wonder why the hell they bothered to show up if they weren't prepared to shut up, suspend their own opinion and listen.

Not every trainer has grounded what they do in a lot of theory. Some simply ground what they do in techniques they have found to work.

You can drive a car without a solid understanding of physics or mechanics. Some people can train a dog that way too.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[Tassie]

well said, Vickie. My thought about the working stockdog situation, is that there is a fairly limited set of things you need to understand - mostly about the sheep, but also about the dog/sheep /human interaction - but that the sheep (unless they're extremely well-dogged) are not going to wait around while you figure out how to apply the theory. Hence - I would totally agree with you that the average Aussie stock person doesn't really want to know about the theory - they want to know how to get the job done with the maximum efficiency and the minimum stress to sheep, dog and handler. From what I've seen, they are primarily experiential learners, and hugely competent observers of their livestock and their dogs.

[Aidan3]

Always a few of the "yeah, but" or "but my dog" sentence starting types.

The special, unique dog seems to be ubiquitous

[JulesP]

What works for me is to be quiet, listen & try really hard. Not only does it get results, it often earns the respect of the trainer that the constant questioners seem to so desperately seek.

I like this. I try to do this too. With the horse example I gave I sat and listened super hard during all the prior lessons and went in and immediately did what the guy wanted, therefore I did heaps more riding.

I was also impressed with a girl on the weekend who listened to what I told the people in front of her and was already doing what I wanted when it came to her turn.

[Cosmolo]

What Vickie and PF said.

But Corvus, i would like to know your background if you were in one of my training classes and AFTER a class would be happy to chat theory and anything else with you. I wouldn't be happy to do it within a class though as i would find it would probably start to dominate and other participants would have their eyes glaze over. I wouldn't have a problem with modification of exercises either- that happens in my classes anyway (and i often direct it) because i have small classes and its easier to be more tailored.

[poodlefan]

Always a few of the "yeah, but" or "but my dog" sentence starting types.

The special, unique dog seems to be ubiquitous

And lets not forget the "but Biddelonian Goosehounds can't/won't/don't" argument. Breed explains all behaviour don't ya know. ;)

Then of course there's my favourite attention seeking/get out of jail free card.. "but my rescue dog.....". Sunshine I don't care where he came from. He's a dog. He's clearly gotten over the experience. Perhaps you should too.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[corvus]

I have no idea why you are shrugging...any more than why you feel the need to bring up Patricia McConnell at my suggestion that THE AVERAGE AUSSIE STOCKPERSON (something she is CLEARLY NOT) would be reluctant to discuss detailed theory. It is actions like this that, if performed continually, would irritate most instructors. It is simply not relevant.

I was just trying to say different people have different approaches and it doesn't necessarily mean they will find any given activity frustrating just because most everyone else learns about it a different way than they do. I think Trisha is a good example of that is all. She gets plenty of instruction in herding. I'd be surprised if the people she chooses to instruct her are heavy on learning theory. And I shrugged because it's not as big a deal to me as you seem to think it is. We almost never talk about theory in agility. That doesn't frustrate me. I just learnt to ask the right questions so I could learn the way that I usually learn. If I have a problem and I can explain it with theory, I usually start and then quickly stop when I get the "what are you talking about?" look and just let them say their piece instead. I'm too grateful for what they can do to be down on what they can't. I have other friends and mentors I can ask outside of class.

I enjoy playing devils advocate during online discussions, but would never consider it in a class or private training situation.

Neither would I. But at the end of the day I know my dog and sometimes I think an approach would work slightly better if I tweaked it a bit. I will ask the instructor first because sometimes I don't have all the information. Most of the time if I understand what the instructors are trying to teach me I am happy to do it their way. You won't believe me, but if there is just one thing on this planet I know how to do it's be a good student. I've been a high achiever all my life and I'm not smart enough to have done it on brains alone. I get help from teachers. They don't help obnoxious students that disrupt classes. My online persona and the way I behave in classes are worlds apart.

[corvus]

What Vickie and PF said.

But Corvus, i would like to know your background if you were in one of my training classes and AFTER a class would be happy to chat theory and anything else with you.

I've never asked a theory question when the instructor is addressing the whole class. That would be rude! If I have a really involved question I send e-mails and invite them to ignore me if they like. :D

I generally don't share my background and try to pretend I'm a normal student. I am not sure that is the best way to do things, though... During Erik's puppy preschool I was trying my hardest to speak as little as possible and not draw the attention of the instructor. If I was quiet and worked as far away from the rest of the group as I could, the instructor ignored me and I could do what I liked. I don't think she liked me very much, though. But at least she didn't ring me up a few months later to blow up at me and accuse me of questioning her professional skills like Kivi's puppy class instructor did... I didn't even know what she was referring to. Was it because I asked if I could use a clicker in class and then didn't when she said "you can if you like but I don't"? Or was it because I said I didn't want to put a no-pull harness on my puppy that didn't pull? That's all I could think of.

I used to think all dog trainers were scary nutcases. Happily, I know better, now. :D But some I think really are scary nutcases. ;)

[poodlefan]

I used to think all dog trainers were scary nutcases. Happily, I know better, now. :D But some I think really are scary nutcases. ;)

If you ever become a dog training instructor, you'll encounter a whole new kind of nutcase.. attached on occasion to the end of a dog's lead.

I get this one all the time:

Trainer: that won't work

Me: have you tried it

Trainer: No but.. *insert excuse here*

Me: Try it my way first, if that doesn't work, we'll try something else

Trainer: Oh wow, that worked.

I think: Yep, but 5 minutes from now you'll be saying "but my dog'...

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[corvus]

I used to think all dog trainers were scary nutcases. Happily, I know better, now. But some I think really are scary nutcases.

If you ever become a dog training instructor, you'll encounter a whole new kind of nutcase.. attached on occasion to the end of a dog's lead.

No thanks! I'm going to cloister myself away in academia where my every word comes with the weight of the word "doctor" behind it. Ha! No, every person with a dog is a dog expert.