Where Is Dog Training Heading?

[Erny]

Good post, Kelpie-i and I concur.

I think those trainers who have been around since God was a boy will concur with the above

Although I'm not that old. Lol. (However there are some days that it might feel that way, rofl)

Edited March 17, 2011 by Erny

[huski]

Still using treats in middle level classes for basic obedience?? (not that I agree with treats at all for basic obedience)

I encourage people in my classes to use food or toys rewards even at trialling level!

Would you go to work for free every day? I wouldn't. My obedience competition dog "still" gets food rewards in training and at trials.

Out of curiosity Muddybear what is your background in dogs?

[Staff'n'Toller]

Where are you instructing at the moment Muddybear?

I see back-pedaling in your future.

[JulesP]

I think that if trainers better understood why their methods work when they do, this would not be such a problem.

I would still like to see trainers with a stronger background in theory. I think it would reduce this kind of frustration.

Err how do you know that trainers don't have a strong background in theory? All the trainers I know do. Even I did weeks and weeks of theory before being unleashed as a volunteer trainer.

[megan_]

I think that if trainers better understood why their methods work when they do, this would not be such a problem.

I would still like to see trainers with a stronger background in theory. I think it would reduce this kind of frustration.

Err how do you know that trainers don't have a strong background in theory? All the trainers I know do. Even I did weeks and weeks of theory before being unleashed as a volunteer trainer.

I think Corvus might be talking about PhD level?

[m-j]

Still using treats in middle level classes for basic obedience?? (not that I agree with treats at all for basic obedience)

I have a friend who has been trialling at all levels, wins the ring fairly consistantly (very rarely she doesn't), with many dogs for over 40 yrs and she always rewards.

Dogs aren't stupid there needs to be something in it for them. If they are working just to avoid a correction after a period of time (when their conditioning becomes extinct) they can become very unreliable when the means for correcting is removed i.e. the lead or correction collar.

[OSoSwift]

There are a couple of exceptional trainers on here of a number of dogs of varying breeds who consistantly produce excellent work that do reward with food among other things.

I think there are frutrated owners because people and society in general want something and want it now. They are quite often unwilling to put the time and effort in to gain positive and permanent change.

People quite often want to go to one lesson and see a change within half an hour to an hour, sometimes it takes longer than that, and the time it takes to see change can quite often be as a reult of the amount of time the dog has had no direction. They can't expect a 12 month to 2 year old dog to forget all it's bad habits after a few training sessions it takes time and dedication.

I think there are many frustrated owners becauce there are so many rules, regulations and do's and don'ts these days when we own dogs. Blocks are smaller, hours worked are quite often longer. Dogs in this day and age need to be able to stay alone for longer, live in a smaller area and say very little.

Having said that there are MANY people who put in the time and effort and have very happy well adjusted dogs. Generally there are very very few problem dogs but a lot of problem owners.

I am not quite sure why you are so anti-trainer there are good and bad everywhere, but your posts seem to be all over the place and a little bit contradictionary (not even sure that's a word!).

My dogs are trialling and still get food and other rewards, they will always get rewards and they have never worn check chains.

Honestly I am not really sure what it is you want and I don't think you know either.

Edited March 18, 2011 by OSoSwift

[OSoSwift]

I think that if trainers better understood why their methods work when they do, this would not be such a problem.

I would still like to see trainers with a stronger background in theory. I think it would reduce this kind of frustration.

Err how do you know that trainers don't have a strong background in theory? All the trainers I know do. Even I did weeks and weeks of theory before being unleashed as a volunteer trainer.

I think Corvus might be talking about PhD level?

Personally I don't think you need a PhD to train dogs. Either you can train them or you can't. Either you can read them or you can't. Theory does not give the person a "feel" for a dog or dogs and what works for them. It is the same as choosing and breeding exceptional dogs either you have an eye for it or you don't. No amount of reading or theory can give you what you don't naturally possess. Being open to new ideas to me is one of the most important things when you train dogs

Personally I read whatever I can get my hands on but I still do not think that just because someone has done a how to train dogs course that they know what they are doing.

Edited March 18, 2011 by OSoSwift

[Cosmolo]

I'd go as far as to say people don't reward their dogs enough in many cases. They expect good behaviour to maintain itself with no reinforcement and get frustrated when it doesn't.

[Kavik]

I remember thinking I knew so much when I finished the NDTF course, it is only later after doing more training, more discussion and going to more seminars that I realised how much I didn't know and how much more I had to learn

I'm another who competes and who rewards their dog with food or toys (depending on situation) Always trying to improve (and there is still plenty of room for improvement!) so always looking at what I can do to improve and changes means changing or tightening criteria, which means you have to reward what you want.

[mita]

Best $25 I ever spent was years ago when I had a session with a UQ vet behaviorist, when our sheltie had separation anxiety.

But we didn't know that, just thought we had a psycho dog who ripped up the sunroom soft furnishings. But that behaviorist explained the dog behaviour....&' messages' behind it. She also explained what dogs need.

So the list of not very complicated things we had to do, made sense. It was all based on understanding what was going on. Within days, I started to see changes in the sheltie, for the better. Within weeks, the behaviour had disappeared.

I told that vet her approach fitted in with the rule of thumb for behaviour management for children. You can't change others behaviour, but you can change your own behaviour... which then influences the other person to change theirs.

It's this understanding which is critical. And it's why I'm not a big fan of dog training out in the paddock (except for socialisation purposes), but training in the everyday contexts for that dog.

To my utter surprise, I'm finding I'm learning some things from watching Cesar Milan, now that he's on ABC TV. I've picked up a few tips from him....that worked! He says it's what's going on BEFORE the training commands that counts.

Edited March 18, 2011 by mita

[Cosmolo]

So true Kavik, i was the same! Now i know how much i don't know

[corvus]

I think that if trainers better understood why their methods work when they do, this would not be such a problem.

I would still like to see trainers with a stronger background in theory. I think it would reduce this kind of frustration.

Err how do you know that trainers don't have a strong background in theory? All the trainers I know do. Even I did weeks and weeks of theory before being unleashed as a volunteer trainer.

I didn't say all trainers. I'm talking about muddybear's unsuccessful trainers.

Nonetheless, I've been fed a lot of incorrect information by trainers. When they tell me something I know is patently untrue I have to question if they know their theory. When they persist with a method that to me is clearly not working, I have to question if they know their theory. Let's say I'm wrong and they do have a strong background in theory... No, I'd rather not contemplate that one, actually.

God help the world if every trainer needs to do a PhD to be properly qualified. It's not that hard!

[wuffles]

Being open to new ideas to me is one of the most important things when you train dogs

Personally I read whatever I can get my hands on but I still do not think that just because someone has done a how to train dogs course that they know what they are doing.

At my club, there are a few people who have been around long enough to see what the "old" methods of training dogs were like and have worked very hard to encourage more positive based training. This has resulted in them being extremely anti- any method that they deem is not "purely positive". They are not even open to discussion about other training methods.

So, sometimes I do see where people are coming from when they complain about purely positive trainers. I think most trainers on these forums (both amateur and professional) probably aren't representative of the general population.

[OSoSwift]

When they persist with a method that to me is clearly not working

That means they are either not open to suggestion or know no other way.

Either way theory has nothing to dow ith people who are not open to learning. If they had lots of theory behind them but still couldn't train a dog what would that mean?????? they read lots have little to no natural ability or are that close minded that they will only follow the theory they have been taught or read and are not opening to learning new things.

I do not think that people learning more theory will change much, maybe with some people it will but what do you class as learning theory Corvus???

Is i someone who has done the NDTF course, someone that reads a lot of different things or someone with a mentor who shares all they know???? How do you define which theory is correct or how much theory enough is?

[corvus]

Never mind. Clearly I'm in a caustic mood today and should ban myself from forums for 24 hours.

Edited March 18, 2011 by corvus

[JulesP]

When they persist with a method that to me is clearly not working.

Often the method does work if you can get the person to just do it properly! For instance a good quick right about turn works beautifully on a pulling dog. But it doesn't work if the handler does a u turn or is really slow and stops half way through to let Fido sniff. So I will persist until the person is doing it correctly. It takes some people a while to get it. But I am a 'nice' instructor and don't say "you are doing it wrong" so it may appear that I am persisting with a method that doesn't work.

To be honest the way these threads turn out depresses the crap out of me and makes me never want to teach again.

[Cosmolo]

Why Jules?

Corvus, you don't need to edit your posts (well i assume you don't and that you weren't swearing at every one or something) and i like hearing what you have to say.

[JulesP]

Why Jules?

I guess because of the way some people have a go at instructors. I have given up around 150 Sunday mornings to teach so when people go on about hopeless instructors I just feel shit.

[Lablover]

It's not that hard!

Have you trained a certified sniffer/search and rescue dog, police dog, guide dog for the visually disabled, Australian customs dog?

There are a lot of poor human teachers, social workers, psychiatrists. (Look at some of their children).