Where Is Dog Training Heading?

[Nekhbet]

My club does most of the things people are suggesting. Lots of lifestyle stuff, positive training, tricks taught etc.

For me personally I hate the lifestyle stuff. Think it should be up to the individual to decide if they want their dog to wait for its dinner etc.

Interestingly people do ark up at the tricks. My beginners have to teach a trick. The last class has been all pet people and they were quite resistant about the tricks, I pretty much told them in the end that they had to teach one to pass. Most of the lifestyle stuff isn't super well received actually. They all mainly want the dogs not to pull on the lead.

They do all enjoy the puppy confidence course though. That has tunnels. steps, tires, little walk overs and different surfaces to walk on.

I don't agree with my clubs stance on correction collars. I would rather be allowed to teach people proper use of them.

Thats why my friend started her own dog school. We take any dog, any behaviour, train ay means that work for both dog and owner. You want to learn something left wing, we have small enough classes and enouh experienced trainers to help you with that. We also explain why we train things and where you can use them, as well as focussing on dog-dog and dog-human interaction. Prey reward, food reward, pack reward use what you like as long as it works.

I agree with Nekhbet. Good advice .... don't know why you're so easily dismissive of it

Its a shame someone with potential has such a closed mind early on.

[Staff'n'Toller]

My club does most of the things people are suggesting. Lots of lifestyle stuff, positive training, tricks taught etc.

For me personally I hate the lifestyle stuff. Think it should be up to the individual to decide if they want their dog to wait for its dinner etc.

Interestingly people do ark up at the tricks. My beginners have to teach a trick. The last class has been all pet people and they were quite resistant about the tricks, I pretty much told them in the end that they had to teach one to pass. Most of the lifestyle stuff isn't super well received actually. They all mainly want the dogs not to pull on the lead.

They do all enjoy the puppy confidence course though. That has tunnels. steps, tires, little walk overs and different surfaces to walk on.

I don't agree with my clubs stance on correction collars. I would rather be allowed to teach people proper use of them.

I thought there was plenty of social walking taught in basic 1 & 2 classes. I know my friend absolutely had to demonstrate loose lead walking to pass.

I teach tricks in puppy school and from what I can gather they really enjoy it. It's good for people to have something fun they do with their dogs to help with bonding when they are dealing with other behaviours they don't like so much. It's up to them if they continue at home or not, they're not being held to ransom.

I know that some people don't like doing it in the more adult classes but it teaches them to think. People who may be too harsh on their dogs on the obedience side of things are forced to think about how to shape something!

Edited February 26, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[JulesP]

I thought there was plenty of social walking taught in basic 1 & 2 classes. I know my friend absolutely had to demonstrate loose lead walking to pass.

I didn't say we didn't teach walking :D I said it was walking that most people most wanted to learn. Puppies & Basic 1 do loose lead walking. Basic 2 they start heeling. We are only supposed to have the class walking for a couple of mins at a time though.

[corvus]

Bah. Never mind.

I agree with Nekhbet. Good advice .... don't know why you're so easily dismissive of it .

Because it's based on false assumptions.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

JulesP

I think I wish my club did more than yank and crank paddock bashing.

My dog learned impulse control and a reliable stay by waiting for her dinner. She could not do a stay for longer than about thirty seconds before I started making her work for her dinner. So it's not lifestyle - it's teaching the dog self control.

And the trick teaching - is teaching the dog to be open about learning new things. And to keep trying new things during training instead of shutting down (or barking its head off) in frustration. So if you have to teach something specific at some time, it's much easier when the dog is good at learning (tricks).

[Skye GSD]

Love it Nekhbet - keep up the good work! If I could afford to fly some of the theory-based/positive/no consequence writers to WA and let them have my strong-willed/reactive 18mth old GSD for a training session on a flat collar and a bag of treats, they would suck!

Training has to be aligned with the dog and handler - not one size fits all.

[PAX]

WA has some/most of the best trainers in OZ IMO.

Maybe you should have some private lessons Skye GSD?

Edited March 7, 2011 by PAX

[Skye GSD]

WA has some/most of the best trainers in OZ IMO.

Maybe you should have some private lessons Skye GSD?

Exactly what I am doing and coming ahead in leaps and bounds

[fuzzy82]

We do basic obedience at an agility club, and we all use clickers and they're always talking about shaping stuff, which is good. Personally I clickertrain and shape stuff at home, and avoid negative punishment as much as I can (no positive punishment is used).

But the other people in our class are just the ordinary dog owner and I think they only use clickers because they are told to, and I have seen some of the smack their dogs for lunging at another dog, and some of them are a bit harsh on their dogs. Up to them of course, but I don't really agree with it.

Anyway, no one in class argues with any of the things that are taught. In puppy class we talked about lifestyle things like waiting at the door and for food, but in basic obedience they haven't dealt with that stuff at all. It's only if someone specifically asks that the trainer gives advice on it. Otherwise we do sit, down, stays, recalls and loose lead walking. They also give us some notes at the end of each class which have a weekly trick in them. They say trick training teaches the dog how to learn, but the way they do it is silly. The notes use moulding for teaching the tricks, and that is also how the trainer demonstrates the tricks at the end of each class. This week's trick is 'roll over' which the trainer demonstrated by pushing a puppy over and then rewarding.

I agree that trick training is beneficial for the learning process, but I don't think moulding a trick teaches the dog to think. I shaped my puppy to roll over, which really made him think, but didn't take longer than about 20 minutes, so it's easy enough to do.

[bedazzledx2]

So what type of training did you do before your dog was 18 months of age? Did you have your dog from a puppy or is he a rescue who came with issues?

Love it Nekhbet - keep up the good work! If I could afford to fly some of the theory-based/positive/no consequence writers to WA and let them have my strong-willed/reactive 18mth old GSD for a training session on a flat collar and a bag of treats, they would suck!

Training has to be aligned with the dog and handler - not one size fits all.

[Skye GSD]

So what type of training did you do before your dog was 18 months of age? Did you have your dog from a puppy or is he a rescue who came with issues?

Came in to my heart at 9 weeks of age - did puppy school, pre-school/kindy classes and 1st level junior. Spent more time out of the class than in it as she was too disruptive. This is a dog that is not receptive to food or toys in a class situation.

Have been to three private trainers and did 6 week courses with all - still no progress except to be told she is a social butterfly/reactive/aggressive.

This is a dog that trains beautifully at home or in areas with no distractions - sits, drops, stands, stays, recalls, heels, drops on recall, retrieves but in the real world when another dog appears, all she wants to do is play with it or eat it :D yet is fantastic at the boarding kennel we use and is fantastic with all other dogs there.

I am an experienced GSD handler but this beautiful, strong-willed brat makes me look like a first time owner with an out of control dog.

Or should I say - after one week of training with the help of Steve at K9, I can actually see a light at the end of the tunnel

Hence my annoyance when well-meaning people who have a "normal" dog will decry certain methods that those of us, who are willing to do everything within our power to reach the normality that most people enjoy, have to use instead of the "feed/feed/feed" syndrome.

[corvus]

Hence my annoyance when well-meaning people who have a "normal" dog will decry certain methods that those of us, who are willing to do everything within our power to reach the normality that most people enjoy, have to use instead of the "feed/feed/feed" syndrome.

This makes me so annoyed. I have one of those dogs that is pushy, opportunistic, exploitative, proactive, and a touch high on stress reactivity. He is not a walk in the park. We do not simply wave food in front of his face and watch everything fall into place. It is just so much more than that. It took a lot of groundwork to condition him to be receptive to rewards in many circumstances. We have spent the last 18 months carefully shaping him into the dog we want, and it has not been easy. We learnt about a lot of things outside of operant conditioning in the process, because sometimes his behaviour seems to defy learning theory. We learnt when it's necessary to punish and then learnt we don't usually need to if we are paying attention to what he's learning and make a decision early about whether we want it or not. We are not successful with him because he is a normal dog. We are successful with him because we are smart about reinforcement and don't leave him behaviour voids to fill with whatever he happens to come up with. Do not assume that because you have had to use punishments (I assume that's what you're talking about) everyone who doesn't (much) must have an easier dog than you. You don't know what kind of dogs we have and how we have found success with them. Learn some theory, live with our dogs, actually find out what we have had success with and why, and then you can feel annoyed when we insist positive reinforcement can be very effective.

[Nekhbet]

ever think that maybe a dog is more difficult because the owner tries to mould it into preconceived ideas instead of what the dog actually needs?

[Skye GSD]

Corvus - I am not getting at you in particular. Whatever works for your dog is great and if I could have used the purely positive methods with my dog I would have. What I am trying to say is that those of us that have the hard-nosed/high drive dogs often need to go down other roads and therefore should not be criticised for it. We are, after all, after the same goal - to have a well-mannered friend that is a role model for it's breed.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Skye GSD

[bedazzledx2]

Don't you think you can get that by using positive methods? We have some superb trainers in WA who understand that its not all about shoving food in the dogs face and calling it positive training. I am disappointed to hear that you don't think anyone could help you with positive training your puppy. Certainly club training has its limitations but I would have been seeking private lessons from the very skilled people in your own back yard long before the puppy reached 18 months of age. I'm glad you are now seeking help from Steve before it gets too out of hand.

Generally I have found that people simply do not understand what positive training is all about and equate it with giving lollies to children. Not so!! It is extremely structured and requires discipline and adherance to the basic rules of learning. I have an extremely high drive kelpie puppy who needs all the skill I can muster and then some! At present my puppy doesn't get any free meals... all food comes from me during positive training sessions. He doesn't come out of his crate until he can sit and wait until I open the door and give a release word, he is on a long line until he can come when called reliably. Will this make him a saint? I don't think so!!! He is still a full on 'naughty' puppy who requires lots and lots of training so he can become sociably acceptable and I don't think he will ever be 'normal' as in your definition, but he will be trained dammit!!!!

Someone posted this in a thread (can't remember which one sorry) which is a good read.

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1721?source=fbfp

Corvus - I am not getting at you in particular. Whatever works for your dog is great and if I could have used the purely positive methods with my dog I would have. What I am trying to say is that those of us that have the hard-nosed/high drive dogs often need to go down other roads and therefore should not be criticised for it. We are, after all, after the same goal - to have a well-mannered friend that is a role model for it's breed.

[JulesP]

I agree with seeking out a good positive dog trainer. When I went back to my club after a long break and it was all positive I was very much WTF. I have never relied on group lessons though coming from a horse background. With help from Ness on here I found a very good positive/clicker type trainer and learnt from her.

I took out the things from positive I wanted to use and discarded the things that didn't make sense to me (I very rarely use a NRM and I never put my dog away if it isn't working).

I use TOT and NILF. If my dog growls at me if I walk past it when it has a bone well I am not going to be siting there fixing that with treats. It is straight into boot camp. I try and respond to stuff like that how another dog would.

If my dog was barking its head off for no good reason it would be getting some sort of barking collar on it. Amber has been growling at a possum at night. I decided that was fair enough and she has been crated at night.

Some positive trainers are crap. Some non positive trainers are crap. A positive trainer can learn from a balanced trainer and the reverse is true as long as the respect is there.

[corvus]

Corvus - I am not getting at you in particular. Whatever works for your dog is great and if I could have used the purely positive methods with my dog I would have. What I am trying to say is that those of us that have the hard-nosed/high drive dogs often need to go down other roads and therefore should not be criticised for it. We are, after all, after the same goal - to have a well-mannered friend that is a role model for it's breed.

The point I'm trying to make is that the "won't work on this kind of dog" and the "us vs them" kind of thing are red herrings getting in the way of good training. The theory is sound - we know it's sound. But there are a myriad of ways to apply it and a vast range of subtlety. To me, saying that a method won't work is grossly simplifying the matter. Whatever it is, if it's based in science it will work if applied correctly. The question is what aspect of it is best suited to the particular animal and particular situation at hand. Can you apply it correctly? Do you have the skill? The necessary reinforcement? How much control over the environment do you have? What are the animal's current skills? Can you identify what is driving the behaviour? There are dozens of questions we can ask ourselves that will help us decide how to apply the theory. And we have to decide what compromises need to be made and how kind our training can afford to be. It annoys the hell out of me that we apparently can't see beyond the methods and whether they work on a very small scale. Personally, I accept that they work, even the ones I don't use, and if they are not working there are pieces missing in their application. No one can use purely positive methods with any dog, but a lot of people have achieved exceptional results with positive reinforcement on a large variety of dogs. That is not to say that it is always appropriate or the most effective, or even that people make compromises they don't need to make when they don't use it. It just works. That's all. If it doesn't work, it's the application that is at fault, not the "method".

ETA Oops, I meant to bring this back to the topic. I would like to see people have more faith in operant conditioning and understand that it all works on every dog, it's just a matter of finding the right way to apply it and deciding what is the best way of applying it given the limitations you have to work with. I would like to see us get past the "us vs them" thing, although I doubt that will ever happen. I would like the focus to be on troubleshooting behaviour rather than troubleshooting traininers, but I doubt that will ever happen, either.

Edited March 9, 2011 by corvus

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: A couple of points I would like to add...

All, not some but all dog owners would benefit from training and instruction before the dog develops problem behaviours, we really try here to push that to the breeders we work with to avoid lengthy rehab later on, but people don't seem to believe that they will end up with a problem dog when they are looking at their cute puppy.

So by the time it gets out of control, they are on a slippery slope.

So yes, agree 2000% to train the dog you want to end up with, not hope for the best is always the best idea.

In terms of getting a "positive trainer", I cant see where SkyeGSD mentioned what type of training were doing, I think some people just assume it was a punishment based program. For the record I don't have a single program that is punishment based and I don't believe that a dog can learn effectively without positive reinforcement.

I have a number of drive training programs and the idea is training a high end dog with zero physical correction, these programs can also work very well for rehabbing timid and aggressive dogs, but sometimes we don't go this direction first because it may not suit the owner or the dog.

Some of my programs involve clicker training, others have communication markers that people understand better, but we never start an out of control dog that is posing a risk to itself, other dogs or its owner with these methods as the dog isn't often engaged and doesn't respond.

Using a clicker has an enormous benefit to some rehab programs where the owner needs to remove anxiety from their communications, but I can tell you that we would get at least 20 email inquiries a week from people seeking help and stating "as long as your not a clicker trainer". I often ask them what is wrong with CT and they say it has been shoved down their throat and it didn't work for their dog.

It isn't even unusual for these people to end up using a clicker with me once we teach the dog to calm down and engage with the owner, THEN it works and works well.

Each situation needs to be assessed on its individual merits, the handler, the problem and the dog, then a direction needs to be chosen to get the dog progressing. The method is basic vehicle I use to help people and their dogs.

It isn't all about the method, then dogs then people, I think that is back to front...

[Cosmolo]

I am actually going to agree with Corvus and K9 Pro here. I don't think many of the points being made here are incompatible.

The question is not does it work. We know it (positive r) does. But there are times where we need immediate supression using another method in combination with PR and THEN continue on in a more positive fashion. Why do we need immediate suppression? Because the owner is about to give up on the dog in some way- either just mentally (they develop the attitude of 'the dog can't do it), OR dog is left in backyard OR dog is rehomed etc etc.

Owners have this idea that they should be able to train dogs themselves, especially because they did so 20 years ago or their parents did- things were different then and we need to remove the guilt, embarassment, stigma attached for some people with going to training OR seeking one on one help. It doesn't help when handlers are told BY trainers that their 12 week old puppy isn't good enough to do any more than be a lap dog (owner wants to trial) or that their young large breed dog is great but its a pity the handler sucks- i have had these people speak to me just in the last few weeks. As if that attitude will help! And these are just the people who persist- how many are there who get disheartened and give up??

One thing that seriously disappoints me about many trainers (ALL types!!) is the lack of genuine understanding of the practical application of classical conditioning. Trainers that lean heavily on positive reinforcement should have CC as their basis but many do not and then the training falls down for a good percentage of dogs. A lack of understanding of 'drive' is also a problem.

I also believe that clubs need to get better at directing someone to private training that may suit them better, Dog and puppy sources need to improve at promoting prevention type dog training and that we all need to improve how we discuss these issues so that it does not become or continue to be an "us vs them" situation.

[Tassie]

Someone posted this in a thread (can't remember which one sorry) which is a good read.

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1721?source=fbfp

Thanks for re-posting this Bedazzledx2 - it's such a great article!