mumtoshelley Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Susan Garrett recommends a head halti like the gentle leader to get a dog's head off the ground - in her book Ruff Love.She also talks about value transfer. If the dog love food, teach it to love tug and transfer the value of the food to the tug by rewarding a good game of tug, with food. You can use food to get the dog fired up and excited and then train in short bursts of 30 seconds to a couple of minutes. The higher the rate of re-inforcement (with tiny treats so the dog doesn't get full) the faster the dog learns and the more excited about training it remains. My dog will do that lovely heel as long as I have a treat in my hand - usually held somewhere around my belly button but sometimes over my left or right hip. I like doing agility so we need to work both sides. I try to make the whole deal a fun game. So I pay attention to what my dog loves doing (apart from mouse hunting) and work that into the game and training. Is Shelley into retrieving at all - because throwing a ball and fetching it can work as reward. It may help to put the ball into a sock so it can be used as a tug too and to limit travel when it lands. Or get/make a ball with a rope in it. There is a GR doing obedience comps around Adeliade that moves stuck to the owners leg with its head up and all happy paws. Trainer got all vague when I asked him how he did it. Shelley isn't much for fetching she will chase the toy and bring it back but after 2 throws shes had enough. She isn't much for toys was like that since the day i got her. She loves food and really keeps an eye on the food or the person who has the food. I guess i'll see how the food works out, If need be i'll useher half a cup of dinner for training during the day and then at night she will get 1 cup of food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth. Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 That's excellent work with Fledge, Star . It was great to watch. Definitely agree - that was great!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I don't know why you would want your dog to heel like that Dobe, it's crowding the handler way too much! When my dogs are heeling I have their shoulder level with my leg, they can still look up and be attentive but not so much that it impedes my walking. I train with clicker and food for precision and general learning and then reward with a tugging toy for things that they know but I wanted a faster response of the command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 If you want animation like in that video, you need something your dog is crazy for. If your dog doesn't go crazy for your praise, you won't get heeling like that by using praise alone. You'll need another reward to motivate the dog. Absolutely Would you work for a pat on the head from your boss? Doubt it. $$$ work better don't they? Same with your dog. Rewards = $$$$ Agree! Head down doesn't neccessarily mean your dog is "sad", she could be bored, stressed - but what she isn't is motivated. That head up prancy heelwork is a combination of drive, focus, high level motivation and a heck of a lot of work. The Dobe is not a great example though. Here's a better one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRksbKrYSI. Have a look at Huski's vids too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Here's another SG is mixing up the use of treats and toys. Pay attention to how often Feature the dog gets a treat - ie lots and often... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Great video Staranais! Mumtoshelley, have you done any eye contact work with your dog? This may also help your dog to look up at you when heeling. It sounds as if your dog isn't motivated in obedience heeling at the moment. She might be doing the exercise correctly but not with any animation. You really need to find out what floats her boat with regard to using food or toys. Using her dinner may work at home but in a more distracting environment it is less likely to be accepted. If someone offers me a dry biscuit, I might take it but it won't hold my attention. If someone gives me a biscuit with some brie on it, I'll be more interested and maybe look at them for a moment and go back to what I was doing. But if someone started offering me some chocolate I'd certainly be sitting up and taking notice, looking at them, hanging around them and figuring out how to get the next one. Maybe experiment with different toys too and only ask her to fetch once. Invite her to play with you, get her to chase you, you could chase her. Work on getting her excited and animated to be with you before trying to teach that style of heeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Aw, thanks everyone who made nice comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Yup, look at Huski's videos, they're awesome!Here's one from my girl quite a few months back now - her heel position isn't perfect yet in this clip but I'm very happy with her focus - anyway as you can see our training at this stage is mostly play with a bit of heeling in it, later on there is more heeling and less play, but the play reward always remains, it is never just work with no play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avcpSJ-w_rY Wow, your dog is so full of energy! Is she like that all the time or just during training? She's like an energizer bunny lol. I prefer the look of this type of heeling over the dobe. The dobe looked like it was tripping over the handler half the time. It was very focussed on the handler but surely you can get focus without having the dog glued to your leg? Is it better to use food or toys to teach this? Or does it depend on the dog? Are some dogs more "natural" at this? I had big troubles trying to teach my puppy NOT to look at me when we were walking. Edited February 21, 2011 by aussielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yup Aussielover, she is like that most of the time. Very fun to work - not always so fun to live with (but I love her anyway!) To teach, I broke it into concepts & use food/praise & markers to teach the basic concepts. Concepts include - finding & staying in heel position, focus on my face, back end awareness. Then when she has the concepts down I've introduced toys so she's now working in prey drive - the animation you see is all adrenaline & anticipation for the bite she knows she is going to get. Other people can get similar effects using food alone, but you do need a reward that the dog goes crazy for. For my girl, that is definitely the chance to bite something. She's actually supposed to be more glued to my leg if I ever wanted to compete in obedience trials in NZ - over here, there's no such thing as crowding, although the dog isn't allowed to impede your movement in any way. But I believe she would be too close for ideal for Australian ANKC heeling? Just depends which venue you want to trial in. There are some good DVDs out there about teaching competition heeling, Ivan Balabanov does a good one, I'm sure there are many more though. Sorry for going OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I had a real hard time teaching Mason to heel as he did not look at me at all, someone from my club suggested holding something he liked at my hip and when he looked at me he got clicked and treated - it was not long before he realized walking next to mum looking at her = food and now even when I am trying to walk him around the neighbourhood he often does long stretches of heeling ( on his own i have not asked him for it at all) because he wants treats. In the last few months our heeling has gotten heaps better but I only do short little bits at a time - I train for a max of 5 mins unless I go to class and I find my dog does tune out there but I go to listen anyway more than to do any training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Susan Garrett recommends a head halti like the gentle leader to get a dog's head off the ground - in her book Ruff Love. Much as I agree with Susan Garratt's training on a lot of issues, I don't agree with this. If a dog is sniffing its often displacement behaviour - the dog is stressed and unfocussed. Our challenge is to get the focus and position and reward it when we do. HOLDING the head up doesn't teach it anything. The trick to good heel work is to show the dog what you want and reward it when you get it. MTS: Get a piece of roast chook or similar. Show Shelly that you've got it then clamp it in your left fist and hold it on your left hip. Start walking.. and report back on your dog's level of focus and energy. If you're worried about making her fat, cut her other meals back and make her train for food. When it comes to training, its best to use what the dog finds most rewarding to reward. If that's food, so be it. Personally I favour the approach that sees the heel position taught as a stationary exercise first. The dog is taught that heel means "be close to handler's left side sitting straight". Once you've got that, adding handler movement means the dog holds position and sits when you stop. Edited February 22, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The trainers said if she moves out of heel pull the lead back and say heel. I know she gets excited when she sees food. But i'm not sure using treats as Shelley is on a diet as she needs to lose weight. I think if someone corrected me and told me to do something that I didn't understand, I'd probably mope around too. Sniffing can be a sign of stress, also known as a "displacement behaviour" or "calming signal". Treats are fine, just feed a little less at dinner. Some dogs in training for service don't eat meals at all, all their food comes in training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I agree with PF- i have seen the best results when heel is taught as a stationary position first. In fact, the lightbulb went off in my youngest dogs head yesterday during a session where we just did stationary heel- could see that he really did 'get it' and i am looking forward to progressing his heeling now- few more stationary sessions needed though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumtoshelley Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 I did some training with Shelley today she was unresponsive to food no matter what food i used. She just kept sitting then wanting the food. So i tryed something else which seemed to work. I put my hand under her chinwhile walking saying heel, I didn't do it for long but did it throught the day. As a reward she responded well too the pats and play. Here is a video of What Shelley's heels are like http://pets.webshots.com/video/3008433770107041515gMjpAg don't mind the old golden retriever in the video thats my mums dog Buddy Here is another video of Shelley heeling this time with my hand under her chin http://pets.webshots.com/video/3011962150107041515UHvGWt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 mumtoshelley - I haven't had a chance to watch the videos but if I can motivate a Dalmatian to do obedience you can motivate a Golden Retriever However sometimes you need to start with something more basic and teach your dog how to learn and how to earn that food reward. Firstly, make sure she is hungry!!! Then start with something simple (with the best food ever!) like looking you in the eye - mark it with a clicker or a verbal "good" and treat. When she can do that, make it harder and put the food in your enclosed hand in front of her but she doesn't get the food until she looks you in the eye. Does that make sense? She has to learn HOW to earn the reward before you can teach her a (surprisingly complex) behaviour like heeling. Not all dogs are the same. My new pup is a breeze to train - mind you she is from working lines and I am more experienced and relaxed with her. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) I watched the first video and IMO you need to reel it right back and go back to focussing with her just sitting by your side, reward her for eye contact which in turns lifts her head. She seems to understand where the heel position is but not what you want "heel" to mean if you get what I mean? The other thing I noticed is right towards the end, she did actually lift her head and was in the correct position but wasn't rewarded. ETA: I agree with TSD, maybe read up on clicker training, it is very precise and you are able to reward for exactly the behaviour you want! Edited February 22, 2011 by tollersowned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 However sometimes you need to start with something more basic and teach your dog how to learn and how to earn that food reward. Firstly, make sure she is hungry!!! Then start with something simple (with the best food ever!) like looking you in the eye - mark it with a clicker or a verbal "good" and treat. When she can do that, make it harder and put the food in your enclosed hand in front of her but she doesn't get the food until she looks you in the eye. Does that make sense? She has to learn HOW to earn the reward before you can teach her a (surprisingly complex) behaviour like heeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumtoshelley Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 I watched the first video and IMO you need to reel it right back and go back to focussing with her just sitting by your side, reward her for eye contact which in turns lifts her head. She seems to understand where the heel position is but not what you want "heel" to mean if you get what I mean?The other thing I noticed is right towards the end, she did actually lift her head and was in the correct position but wasn't rewarded. ETA: I agree with TSD, maybe read up on clicker training, it is very precise and you are able to reward for exactly the behaviour you want! I did give her a pat and told her good girl but didn't play with her at the end like in the second video. Maybe i'm giving her the wrong singals or something. Shes good at sitting beside me, Problem is the obedience club here doesn't like you giving eye contact to the dog, I don't know why. I guess i'm going to have to go back to basics with Shelley. I have notice just after couple of times with my hand under her chin was getting the idea of holding her head up. When she looks up at me i do reward her. I just brought some kangaroo treats off ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 A much, much higher rate of reinforcement would help to speed up your progress. A slightly faster pace, a bit more encouragement to get her going then lots of marking and rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Where do you train mumtoshelley? It's very hard to describe a training method sometimes - perhaps one of us could give you a few tips in person. I train at Croydon if that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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