Before Starting Agility Classes

[poodlefan]

Problem with the blinds is that they come more naturally to handlers than fronts and once taught can be a very hard habit to break.

I speak from personal experience.

I haven't heard her expressing a problem ;). Like I said, I don't know that she spends a lot of time focusing on it. And in the opportunity I had today to observe some of their lesson, I didn't see that happening. But cheers for the heads up .

I've had handlers swear to me they'd just front crossed when they've blind crossed. As the result is the same, some can't tell the difference at first. However a turn that requires you to lose sight of the dog isn't a great idea.

[Erny]

Having a dog that is on-lead while your teaching it to jump can also interfere with a dogs jumping action - just something I would never consider - and as poodlefan wrote I would also struggle to consider something "agility" with a lead on. I also would never want to train a dog on-lead over obstacles that I was going to trial later. Just to many issues and much prefer to have a dog trained to be focused and attentive and not have to worry about the dog taking off.

I just happened to watch one of the most recent Clean Run Foundation agility dvds today and the women on there (sorry would have to look up who) said the same. Get the focus, the team work etc happening before introducing equipment into the picture.

I understand that this is your, PF's and even the opinion of others who are more versed in agility than I. I am swimming against the tide, it seems. But I will still assert that working agility with your dog can actually assist in improving other aspects of dog training including increasing focus. I have no problems if anyone wants to change the name of what we do because of the fact we intro it 'on-lead'. And I'm not seeing any reason why the dogs that are now in the higher level have been disadvantaged by their 'on-lead' intro. ..... sorry, what can I say ;).

But I do acknowledge that you guys have obviously seen these problems. I've not recognised them within our classes though.

[Erny]

I've had handlers swear to me they'd just front crossed when they've blind crossed. As the result is the same, some can't tell the difference at first. However a turn that requires you to lose sight of the dog isn't a great idea.

Ok. I'll pass it on. Thanks. But as I said, I don't think they are even doing it. I have not recognised them doing any moves where they are turning away from their dog.

[The Spotted Devil]

I think I'd get shot if I blind crossed my dog at training I get in trouble for plenty of other things though ;)

One thing I always point out to people who are desperate to get their dog going over obstacles is that your dog spends the vast majority of an agility course running between obstacles. Best to get that right first. I'm going to take Little Em to one of our states top competitors for a couple of agility lessons. She's only 6 months but we do all our training off lead. This instructor is very good with youngsters and her dogs, I've been told, don't see a jump until they are 15 months old. Prior to that they are doing handling drills, grid work etc.

[Erny]

I think I'd get shot if I blind crossed my dog at training I get in trouble for plenty of other things though

;) ... I even need to double check with our Instructor if this is one of the crosses she mentions. I might have that wrong. I hope I don't have her in trouble if I am wrong, lol.

[poodlefan]

Having a dog that is on-lead while your teaching it to jump can also interfere with a dogs jumping action - just something I would never consider - and as poodlefan wrote I would also struggle to consider something "agility" with a lead on. I also would never want to train a dog on-lead over obstacles that I was going to trial later. Just to many issues and much prefer to have a dog trained to be focused and attentive and not have to worry about the dog taking off.

I just happened to watch one of the most recent Clean Run Foundation agility dvds today and the women on there (sorry would have to look up who) said the same. Get the focus, the team work etc happening before introducing equipment into the picture.

I understand that this is your, PF's and even the opinion of others who are more versed in agility than I. I am swimming against the tide, it seems. But I will still assert that working agility with your dog can actually assist in improving other aspects of dog training including increasing focus. I have no problems if anyone wants to change the name of what we do because of the fact we intro it 'on-lead'. And I'm not seeing any reason why the dogs that are now in the higher level have been disadvantaged by their 'on-lead' intro. ..... sorry, what can I say ;).

But I do acknowledge that you guys have obviously seen these problems. I've not recognised them within our classes though.

Many problems won't be apparent or an issue until or unless the handler and dog enter the trialling ring. Its one of the reasons we encourage new handlers to steward.. so that they can see what they're training to achieve.

I guess most of us have seen the sport evolve from "heeling over obstacles" to what its now become. Its still a young sport but training methods have undergone a revolution.

I guess some of us have evolved our training styles from that early idea to want to establish foundations that see the dog moving at speed, with obstacle focus and more remote handler guidance from the very beginning.

It can be a real challenge to train the dog to focus on what's ahead of it while the handler changes distances and sides. Locking the dog close to you and guiding it with a leash in the beginning doesn't do that. Its my belief that its better for dogs and handlers to start out using methods that you intend to trial with.

However training in unfenced public places adds an additional safety dimension to the issue - something we don't confront at my club.

[Kavik]

Double post

Edited February 20, 2011 by Kavik

[Kavik]

I think I'd get shot if I blind crossed my dog at training

Me too for sure! ;)

[poodlefan]

I think I'd get shot if I blind crossed my dog at training I get in trouble for plenty of other things though

One thing I always point out to people who are desperate to get their dog going over obstacles is that your dog spends the vast majority of an agility course running between obstacles. Best to get that right first. I'm going to take Little Em to one of our states top competitors for a couple of agility lessons. She's only 6 months but we do all our training off lead. This instructor is very good with youngsters and her dogs, I've been told, don't see a jump until they are 15 months old. Prior to that they are doing handling drills, grid work etc.

Yep, the obstacles are the easy bit ;)

[Vickie]

However a turn that requires you to lose sight of the dog isn't a great idea.

can't resist playing devils advocate here

after watching some of the top (world team) Europeans lately, I was surprised at just how many of them do blind cross on course. They train it AND they pull it off! Well! In fact they break lots of our rules with spectacular results sometimes.

I have been known to throw the occasional one in & have even planned a couple. It's something I want in my toolbox but rarely use. At this point I have only ever planned or used it when my dog is in a tunnel and can't see me anyway.

[poodlefan]

However a turn that requires you to lose sight of the dog isn't a great idea.

can't resist playing devils advocate here ;)

after watching some of the top (world team) Europeans lately, I was surprised at just how many of them do blind cross on course. They train it AND they pull it off! Well! In fact they break lots of our rules with spectacular results sometimes.

I have been known to throw the occasional one in & have even planned a couple. It's something I want in my toolbox but rarely use. At this point I have only ever planned or used it when my dog is in a tunnel and can't see me anyway.

I'd still not recommend them to your average handler... and that's most of us.

See - two agiliteers equals two opinions.

Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan

[Cosmolo]

I promised myself i wouldn''t get involved in this discussion but yet here i am..

PF- do you not think a dog can be taught something one way and then weaned off particular cues?

I think having dogs on lead is being made to sound like those who do it train that way for extended periods or up until a trial and then struggle. In my experience thats not the case and as agility helps to develop the dogs focus and the dog- handler bond, the dog can then be off lead and owners can get away from any kind of guiding. We still teach the driving forward, obstacle focus etc- we just happen to start on lead in some situations. I have never had issues with getting owners to move at a decent speed between obstacles either. ;)

[Vickie]

I'd still not recommend them to your average handler... and that's most of us.

See - two agiliteers equals two opinions. ;)

yes, that is very true...and I really should add that I have probably only used them to compensate for a failure or lack of training somewhere else on course which meant I could not get to where I needed to be.

As far as the opinions...I think we're generally on the same page...like I said couldn't resist playing devils advocate

[poodlefan]

I promised myself i wouldn''t get involved in this discussion but yet here i am..

PF- do you not think a dog can be taught something one way and then weaned off particular cues?

I think having dogs on lead is being made to sound like those who do it train that way for extended periods or up until a trial and then struggle. In my experience thats not the case and as agility helps to develop the dogs focus and the dog- handler bond, the dog can then be off lead and owners can get away from any kind of guiding. We still teach the driving forward, obstacle focus etc- we just happen to start on lead in some situations. I have never had issues with getting owners to move at a decent speed between obstacles either.

Of course a dog can be retrained.. but why not start as you intend to go on? Its not so much about weaning off cues as giving the dog the skills and confidence to work at distance. Tying the dog to your side may teach handler focus when most agility trainers are working on teaching independent obstacle completion off handler cues. They want to wean the dog away from the handler ASAP because its the most challenging thing to teach. They also want maximum speed ASAP. So they expect basic focus to have been achieved off obstacles. That allows for faster progress on them.

How can a dog drive forward if it can't be more than a lead's length from the handler? It can never be anywhere other than next to or on the same side of at the obstacle the hander is near. No lead outs and no sending. No rear crosses on contacts or tunnels - basic trialling moves. And no independent contacts and weaving - arguably the most time consuming to train and the most time saving on a course. A dog on a lead is guided to every obstacle when many trainers are aiming to get the handler out of the picture as soon as possible. Level 2 dogs at my club will send probably 10metres to a tunnel while the handler changes direction - and the dog's are powering into and out of them.

Dogs taught to run beside the handler and handlers taught to run around every obstacle DO struggle - to make time beyond Novice.

I train Novice triallers a fair bit. I have to encourage them not to babysit their dogs to obstacles, to RUN flat out, not stand flat footed at points on the course and wait for their dogs and these are people trained offlead from the get go. I think quite a few new handlers are surprised that they are expected to sprint, not trot between obstacles and to perform almost balletic turns at speed also. My guess is we have different views of what "decent speed" might be.

What's the old agility adage.. if you've never fallen over on an agility course, you're not going hard enough. ;)

Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan

[megan_]

Sorry to hijack your thread further dug dug, but I'd like to wade into the onlead debate.

I train my two dogs in agility with erny ( and the agility instructor). I think I know the kind of classes of which PF speaks - people are trained lots of equipment at once, no handling or body language skills and they think agilit is all about the obstacles, with very little focus on flatwork.

Erny's school is nothing like that. In the groundwork classes, we learnt one, maybe two pieces of equipment at a time. 80% of the lesson was about handling, body language, hind leg awareness, focus etc.

When a dog demo'd that they were safe off leash, they could then work offleash. My boy has been doing this since week three. At the end of most lessons, each dog would get a turn off leash, with the other dogs outside the fenced area for safety.

This was necessary because 3 out of 4 of the dogs in our class have issues and owners undertook agility to help with these ( focus, confidence etc). Two ( a rottie and a weim) were reactive and couldn't be off leash safely. Fast forward 6 months and they both work off leash right next to other dogs without incident. In fact they don't even seem to notice them. They both focus on their owners and drive through the obstacles.

My girl - who two years ago was pumping out puppies in a age - has been doing agility for 5 months. She sometimes has fear aggression started off on leash too. At first she was scared of everything- even the pause table. She now completes an entire novice course off leash- around other dogs and people- and really loves it( her tail wags like crazy the whole time). Her confidence has grown so much since starting agility - even her groomed commented that she was a different dog.

I guess the point of my ramble is that I'm really glad that erny has given us the opportunity to learn agility even though our dogs don't fit the traditional criteria - it has made a massive difference to these three dogs.

One final note about safety. Erny is a safety nut. Our class is really small(4 dogs, 1 trainer and 1 assistant) so on leash work is closely supervised). We do the slanty pole weaver method so you can't pull your dog into a weaving motion. We Are now all off leash, do lea outs, and all dogs move very quickly( with the exception of my spechul girl).

This was typed on my iPhone and I can't get the auto correct Off, so I apologize for any typos.

Edited February 20, 2011 by megan_

[Cosmolo]

So do you consider it retraining if a dog is taught to say drop with a lure and then the lure is weaned off? I think thats where we fundamentally disagree as i don't consider it to be retraining to wean off cues.

Our agility classes have changed significantly since we started doing them and will continue to do so as we move forward. But i don't think its a problem (and have not found it to be so) to wean off cues. I have 2 schnauzers who have done a handful of sessions and are now off lead, doing rear crosses, working on lead outs and front crosses. But they started on lead. Thats not to suggest they don't have a long way to go, but i can't see any difference between them and one of my own who started off lead straight away. Just my opinion.

[poodlefan]

So do you consider it retraining if a dog is taught to say drop with a lure and then the lure is weaned off? I think thats where we fundamentally disagree as i don't consider it to be retraining to wean off cues.

Our agility classes have changed significantly since we started doing them and will continue to do so as we move forward. But i don't think its a problem (and have not found it to be so) to wean off cues. I have 2 schnauzers who have done a handful of sessions and are now off lead, doing rear crosses, working on lead outs and front crosses. But they started on lead. Thats not to suggest they don't have a long way to go, but i can't see any difference between them and one of my own who started off lead straight away. Just my opinion.

A shift from running beside a handler to working independently of handler positon is more than weaning off a lure.

If you're happy and your handlers are happy then these are just differences of opinion.

Are any of your handlers trialling yet?

Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

The above video is one of our top handlers in the country.

Am I ever going to be that good? probably not. Do I aspire to what she can do? You betcha.

I'm not saying that anyone starting (or teaching) agility does or should aspire to this, just wanted to put it up as an example of what can be achieved.

[poodlefan]

You shouldn't sell yourself short Vickie -nice round!

This is the kind of distance handlers aspire to have their dogs work at.

[Cosmolo]

Wow Vickie, that is just awesome- what a team!!

No they aren't PF, But i have before, although nowhere near what many here have due to time constraints. Its one of the problems having horses and dogs- hard to fit everything in!

ETA- I knwo teaching independence is more than weaning off a guide/ lure- what i mean is that once we get rid of the lead, we would then go through a similar process to what others do to build the drive forwards etc- i guess the lead is just an additional step.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Cosmolo