Before Starting Agility Classes

[poodlefan]

Thanks everyone that has clarified things for me.

I do recall thinking that a dog that graduated from our Level 5 would be ready for agility. But there is a lot more in graduating Level 5 than just a good recall, so I'm thinking now that a good pass at Level 3 with a rock solid recall (albeit with a bit of space around the dog) may be enough for her to get started if she likes.

I also really like the idea of retrieving trials and gundog work. That might require a bit more travel for this person, but may be a lot of fun for both her and her dog.

I'll talk it through with her next week. In the end, it depends on what she wants to do with her dog and she did say she would like to do agility so I suspect it's a question of working at our club as preparation work to get the basic teamwork happening, at which time they are ready to go off and do some agility training elsewhere.

Tell her to get her Lab really lean. It will help the dog considerably.

[Zug Zug]

I wondered about that. Labs can land heavily on those hips and elbows, can't they? I'll find a way to work that into the conversation. This is a medium to heavy-set Lab too, especially given it is only 10 months.

So yes, good point.

[poodlefan]

I wondered about that. Labs can land heavily on those hips and elbows, can't they? I'll find a way to work that into the conversation. This is a medium to heavy-set Lab too, especially given it is only 10 months.

So yes, good point.

If that's a polite way to say "beefy" then a diplomatic suggestion of weight loss would be a good idea. A lot of the strain is on the front end of the dog.

Agility can be hard on a dog and a breed prone to cruciate ligament rupture doesn't need to carry excess weight.

Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan

[Erny]

Agility is about teamwork. It's not a team when one member is being towed around, being jerked around the neck and has no idea what's expected of them.

I hope that it is not assumed that this is what our intro to agility class is like (seeing as I have expressed the fact that we do start with dogs on lead in the Groundwork program). The dogs who have started with us and progressed into higher levels have now begun off lead work and are demonstrating effective control.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Erny

[poodlefan]

Agility is about teamwork. It's not a team when one member is being towed around, being jerked around the neck and has no idea what's expected of them.

I hope that it is not assumed that this is what our intro to agility class is like (seeing as I have expressed the fact that we do start with dogs on lead in the Groundwork program). The dogs who have started with us and progressed into higher levels have now begun off lead work and are demonstrating effective control.

No, if was a reference to dog park equipment as discussed earlier in the post.

However, I would argue that even in a controlled and supervised class, every time the lead tightens there is a chance of compulsion that must be schooled out of the handler.

Its why we work hard in our classes to get leads off and handlers weaned from "power steering" from the get go. They learn it in onlead obedience and without coaching they don't lose the habit. Using the lead as a brake is one example. Watch many novice handlers work onlead in heeling and they will use the lead to cue an automatic sit.

Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan

[Erny]

No, if was a reference to dog park equipment as discussed earlier in the post.

Thanks PF. I wasn't sure if you were reverting to a general statement about any agility on lead.

[poodlefan]

No, if was a reference to dog park equipment as discussed earlier in the post.

Thanks PF. I wasn't sure if you were reverting to a general statement about any agility on lead.

See my qualifying comments.

I'd still argue that its not really "agility" if its onlead. Pre-agility maybe.

I'd argue that leads and weavers are completely incompatible. The dog will not learn what's required if its being steered.

A good weaving dog drives through fast with its head down. A dog on a lead cannot do that. I have never seen a dog double pump or single foot weavers at speed on lead. Taught offlead, some dogs will have adopted either of those styles within a couple of weeks.

Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan

[Erny]

However, I would argue that even in a controlled and supervised class, every time the lead tightens there is a chance of compulsion that must be schooled out of the handler.

Its why we work hard in our classes to get leads off and handlers weaned from "power steering" from the get go. They learn it in onlead obedience and without coaching they don't lose the habit. Using the lead as a brake is one example. Watch many novice handlers work onlead in heeling and they will use the lead to cue an automatic sit.

I don't think we have that problem either. In the first level the handlers are not running obstacle sequences so much, although there might be a couple of pieces that are selected to run one after another. I'm not trying to be argumentative. You've obviously seen the down side of it, it's just I don't see these problems occurring with the manner in which ours are taught. Like I mentioned earlier though, the handlers need to have control of their dogs, just not necessarily off lead control in the very first level of agility intro.

[poodlefan]

However, I would argue that even in a controlled and supervised class, every time the lead tightens there is a chance of compulsion that must be schooled out of the handler.

Its why we work hard in our classes to get leads off and handlers weaned from "power steering" from the get go. They learn it in onlead obedience and without coaching they don't lose the habit. Using the lead as a brake is one example. Watch many novice handlers work onlead in heeling and they will use the lead to cue an automatic sit.

I don't think we have that problem either. In the first level the handlers are not running obstacle sequences so much, although there might be a couple of pieces that are selected to run one after another. I'm not trying to be argumentative. You've obviously seen the down side of it, it's just I don't see these problems occurring with the manner in which ours are taught. Like I mentioned earlier though, the handlers need to have control of their dogs, just not necessarily off lead control in the very first level of agility intro.

Agility is full of debate Erny. Show me two competitors or two trainers and I'll show you an argument

The biggest downside of onlead training Erny is that dogs learn to do obstacles beside the hander and only in that manner. Handlers tend to trot along when they should be RUNNING between obstackes. That's a difficult habit to break when well estabished. Sometimes you knock the drive out of the dog and you certainly don't tend to get dogs focussing ahead. As discussed with Cosmolo that's no big deal for folk who never intend to trial. If they do, they're going to have to retrain their dogs from scratch. That's not always easy.

When we've done public demos, we've used star pickets and orange plastic traffic barrier stuff to cordone off the working area. I wonder if that would work for trainers who train in public spaces.

Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan

[Erny]

I'd still argue that its not really "agility" if its onlead. Pre-agility maybe.

I don't mind what name it is put under.

I'd argue that leads and weavers are completely incompatible. The dog will not learn what's required if its being steered.

Again, the manner in which our dogs are intro'd and progressively taught weavers, they can still start on lead initially without hindrance. (Must be 12mo or older though.) As they progress it becomes more necessary for the dog to be off lead but so far in our experience the dogs by then becoming so much more focused on their handler and 'addicted' to the agility itself, that their off lead reliability has also progressed.

A good weaving dog drives through fast with its head down. A dog on a lead cannot do that.

What I said above ;).

[poodlefan]

I'd still argue that its not really "agility" if its onlead. Pre-agility maybe.

I don't mind what name it is put under.

I'd argue that leads and weavers are completely incompatible. The dog will not learn what's required if its being steered.

Again, the manner in which our dogs are intro'd and progressively taught weavers, they can still start on lead initially without hindrance. (Must be 12mo or older though.) As they progress it becomes more necessary for the dog to be off lead but so far in our experience the dogs by then becoming so much more focused on their handler and 'addicted' to the agility itself, that their off lead reliability has also progressed.

A good weaving dog drives through fast with its head down. A dog on a lead cannot do that.

What I said above ;).

How do you teach an independent weaver entry if the dog is onlead? Doesn't matter if the dog isn't going to trial but its vital for those that do.

Using guides, this is possible almost immediately.

[Erny]

Agility is full of debate Erny. Show me two competitors or two trainers and I'll show you an argument

The biggest downside of it Erny is that dogs learn to do obstacles beside the hander and only in that manner. Handlers tend to trot along when they should be RUNNING between obstackes. That's a difficult habit to break when well estabished. Sometimes you knock the drive out of the dog and you certainly don't tend to get dogs focussing ahead. As discussed with Cosmolo that's no big deal for folk who never intend to trial. If they do, they're going to have to retrain their dogs from scratch. That's not always easy.

When we've done public demos, we've used star pickets and orange plastic traffic barrier stuff to cordone off the working area. I wonder if that would work for trainers who train in public spaces.

I get what you're saying PF but all I can say is that I'm not seeing these things you suggest are the problems that will occur, occurring. Our dogs in our higher level (they've had about 23 lessons in all, I think) are beginning to be 'sent' (handlers have been taught front; rear; and blind crosses and so forth).

I can't fully explain why our training is working as well as it is - I'm not the agility instructor. I know a bit of it due to my own limited experience, but it is just that .... limited. Consequently I have someone who has far more experience and expertise than I do. I guess my point is that it can be done. I have actually used agility activity to help handlers achieve a better degree of off lead effective control when they were otherwise struggling to achieve it. This is why I don't like saying to people they must achieve advanced level training (to include effective off lead control) before they are permitted to partake in agility.

[Erny]

How do you teach an independent weaver entry if the dog is onlead? Doesn't matter if the dog isn't going to trial but its vital for those that do.

I don't know what the method is called, but our instructor uses the method of starting with weavers as a channel and then bringing them in gradually. Our dogs in the higher level are beginning to show signs of weaving as we like to see them do, but by now they also have better off-lead effective control and therefore are working more off lead than on like they were previously.

[poodlefan]

I'd highly recommend you don't worry about teaching blind crosses. You wont' see any of the more progressive clubs teaching or recommending them.

If you have time to blind cross, you have time to front cross and you don't turn away from the dog.

There is no formal level of obedience required for entry into agility at our club. What is required is control under distraction using any method the handler cares to employ to motivate the dog.

In a class environment where toys and food are used by handlers, that's essential if more than one dog is to be offlead.

Our club uses about 4 methods of weaver training, dependent on handler and dog. Channels and guides are the two most popular ones.

I favour guides because you can encourage the desired behaviour and remove the handler from the equation very quickly. The challenge is getting the guides off fast enough.

Edited February 20, 2011 by poodlefan

[Erny]

I'd highly recommend you don't worry about teaching blind crosses. You wont' see any of the more progressive clubs teaching or recommending them.

Don't know that she's spent a great deal of time focusing on it other than to show and demonstrate it. But thanks - I'll have a chat with her.

[poodlefan]

I'd highly recommend you don't worry about teaching blind crosses. You wont' see any of the more progressive clubs teaching or recommending them.

Don't know that she's spent a great deal of time focusing on it other than to show and demonstrate it. But thanks - I'll have a chat with her.

Problem with the blinds is that they come more naturally to handlers than fronts and once taught can be a very hard habit to break.

I speak from personal experience.

[Erny]

I favour guides because you can encourage the desired behaviour and remove the handler from the equation very quickly. The challenge is getting the guides off fast enough.

I know our Instructor is familiar with a few variations on different training techniques. I remember her speaking about them. The one she uses is the one she prefers because she feels it is generally the better for most people. They seem to be working very well . We have small numbers to our classes, which means that if any dog has a problem with learning the way she currently teaches, she'd be able to change to suit.

[poodlefan]

I favour guides because you can encourage the desired behaviour and remove the handler from the equation very quickly. The challenge is getting the guides off fast enough.

I know our Instructor is familiar with a few variations on different training techniques. I remember her speaking about them. The one she uses is the one she prefers because she feels it is generally the better for most people. They seem to be working very well . We have small numbers to our classes, which means that if any dog has a problem with learning the way she currently teaches, she'd be able to change to suit.

Sounds good. I haven't seen many of the smaller dogs handle channels as well as guides but what matter is what the handler will be happy to train at home.

[ness]

Having a dog that is on-lead while your teaching it to jump can also interfere with a dogs jumping action - just something I would never consider - and as poodlefan wrote I would also struggle to consider something "agility" with a lead on. I also would never want to train a dog on-lead over obstacles that I was going to trial later. Just to many issues and much prefer to have a dog trained to be focused and attentive and not have to worry about the dog taking off.

I just happened to watch one of the most recent Clean Run Foundation agility dvds today and the women on there (sorry would have to look up who) said the same. Get the focus, the team work etc happening before introducing equipment into the picture.

ETA. Zug Zug grade 5 is a pre-requisite for agility at my obedience club but I wouldn't go so far as to say that properly equips the dogs either. There are still off-lead control issues with dogs graduating grade 5 - especially in a high energy environment like agility.

Edited February 20, 2011 by ness

[Erny]

Problem with the blinds is that they come more naturally to handlers than fronts and once taught can be a very hard habit to break.

I speak from personal experience.

I haven't heard her expressing a problem ;). Like I said, I don't know that she spends a lot of time focusing on it. And in the opportunity I had today to observe some of their lesson, I didn't see that happening. But cheers for the heads up .